Wow, I really like something beretta made....

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

What im trying to say is theres a common theme of people who rip on any rifle thats not an ar-15 or ak and say (SCAR, ACR, AR160, XCR, etc.) are answers in search of a problem, not needed cause the ar-15 exists,

Who are those people you speak of? I'd really like to read an article/blog post by someone who "rips" on the SCAR or ACR or any of the new rifles. I haven't seen too many such articles. Whereas I've seen/heard WAY too many people on the 'Net who seem to think that the AR is fatally flawed, that it must be replaced ASAP, and that the newest rifle platform by H&K, FN, or whoever is the solution to the "problem" of the AR.

And the thing is, this has been going on since I was a kid. If someone had told me in 2000 that the AR was still going to be around (and more popular than ever) a decade later, I wouldn't have believed it. It's not so much that people "rip" on the new rifles; it's just that those new rifles never live up to the hype, so people eventually just stop talking about them and accept that the AR is fine, and in many ways superior.

Originally Posted by k9870

Variety is the spice of life.

Yes, it is. And one of the cool things about free-market societies like America is that there's such a huge variety of choices. But when one particular product endures and remains popular for over 40 years, outliving all of the other choices that have come and gone during that time, it seems safe to assume that this product is the best choice for most people.

Originally Posted by k9870

Its also cool having something thats not exactly common, if 4 of your riends pulled out glocks wouldnt having your sig feel cool?

No.

Also, if 4 of my friends pulled out brand-new, $1500 STI match-grade 1911 clones, and I pulled out my 22-year old, $500 SIG, then by your definition, I shouldn't feel so cool.

[k9870]

The Ar-15 hyping is forum stuff on gun forums not professional articles, Its just always something like:

"hey i want a new rifle for carbine courses is the XCR a good choice handled one in the store and liked it."

"get an ar-15 there the best thats why the military uses them"

"yeah why waste money on that when the time proven ar-15 is avalible"


I wouldnt mind having an ar15, just if i spent that much money on a rifle id want something I like a little better. And as stated I have left handed friends who hit the range with me and a true ambi rifle would be nice. Im not ripping on the ar-15, i just dont get why new weapons systems always get beat up on for not being one. The AR-15 is good, its not all superior, its not 10 levels above everything else, and remember, the first gen ar-15s blew hard, the new age weapons are in their first generation. In 40 years the Imagine where a SCAR or ACR will be.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

The Ar-15 hyping is forum stuff on gun forums not professional articles, Its just always something like:

"hey i want a new rifle for carbine courses is the XCR a good choice handled one in the store and liked it."

"get an ar-15 there the best thats why the military uses them"

"yeah why waste money on that when the time proven ar-15 is avalible"

Sounds like good advice to me. Buying a proven product is often preferable to buying a new and unproven product, especially when the new product costs so much more. And firearms, unlike other consumer products, don't become outdated or useless the way that cars and computers do, which is all the better reason to take a proven firearm over an unproven one.

The XCR also retails for $1500, while a good AR can be had for $800-$900. For someone who's never even owned a rifle before, it's an especially good idea to start with an AR, given its price and its track record.

Originally Posted by k9870

I wouldnt mind having an ar15, just if i spent that much money on a rifle id want something I like a little better.

Which would be well and done, but the biggest reason you seem to have for not liking the AR is the fact that you want to be different. And as I've said already, being different for the sake of being different is not morally superior to choosing something that most people like and enjoy.

Originally Posted by k9870

And as stated I have left handed friends who hit the range with me and a true ambi rifle would be nice.

What's more ambidextrous than an AR? You aren't talking about converting the rifle to left-handed shooting (switching bolt and ejection port) on the spot, are you?

Originally Posted by k9870

Im not ripping on the ar-15, i just dont get why new weapons systems always get beat up on for not being one.

It's not entirely obvious to me that anyone's "beating up" new weapons systems for not being ARs. It would help if you posted some links to forum posts/blogs/whatever to prove your case (being that this is the Internet and all, the rule "post proof or retract" applies).

Originally Posted by k9870

The AR-15 is good, its not all superior, its not 10 levels above everything else, and remember, the first gen ar-15s blew hard, the new age weapons are in their first generation. In 40 years the Imagine where a SCAR or ACR will be.

Most of the "new generation" rifles (like the G36, SCAR, etc.) use the same gas system and bolt design as the AR-18, which is almost as old as the AR-15. The only big differences are that they're made out of polymer and have accessory rails. These aren't "new age" weapons at all, they're basically just modernized versions of a 40-year old rifle that already failed to eclipse the AR-15 in either the military or civilian markets.

Plus, you seem to forget that most European armies are issuing rifles that are based upon AR-18 technology, yet their SF units tend to prefer AR-15 variants.

[k9870]

What's more ambidextrous than an AR? You aren't talking about converting the rifle to left-handed shooting (switching bolt and ejection port) on the spot, are you?

I am talking about instantly changing it. Ejection port and all.

which is all the better reason to take a proven firearm over an unproven one.

Plenty of other rifles have proven themselves

but the biggest reason you seem to have for not liking the AR is the fact that you want to be different.

isnt my biggest thing, Reliability, accuracy and features is, just exclusivity is a nice thing, like when people put custom grips on a pistol, personalizing is where it is




I dont want a huge ar vs everything else debate, It just isnt the end all rifle, there are tons of good rifle designs and Im not gonna automatically get something simply because its been around the block the longest, im going to get whatever has a good fit, reliability, accuracy, and features. If somebody likes Ar15s, more power to them, they've just never caught on with me. I kind of like full sized ar-15s, a2 style, but the carbines just never did it for me.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

I am talking about instantly changing it. Ejection port and all.

In my experience, even if they didn't make lefty ARs (which they do now), the AR is naturally a very ambidextrous platform as-is.

Originally Posted by k9870

Plenty of other rifles have proven themselves

Define "proven".

Originally Posted by k9870

isnt my biggest thing, Reliability, accuracy and features is,

AR has all of those.

Originally Posted by k9870

It just isnt the end all rifle,

It's about the closest thing so far.

Originally Posted by k9870

and Im not gonna automatically get something simply because its been around the block the longest,

Not just because it's been around the block the longest; because nothing else has displaced it yet, despite having equal opportunity to do so in a free-market society. Slight difference.

Originally Posted by k9870

im going to get whatever has a good fit, reliability, accuracy, and features. If somebody likes Ar15s, more power to them, they've just never caught on with me.

Again, AR has all of those things. They don't seem to have "caught on" with you because you seem too determined to be different (and I know you deny it, but as this point, it seems kinda hard to believe that's not your biggest motive, since you haven't listed a single grievance that sounds credible).

And yes, it is your choice what you want to buy. This is a free-market country, and you have the right to choose something else on the market. But if you really want to spend $1500+ on a new, unproven rifle that may be forgotten 10 years from now, instead of buying an AR-15 for half as much, and all for dubious reasons...then I reserve the right to tell you that you aren't making a wise buying decision.

[k9870]

The AR is accurate, reliable, modular, etc. Its not the only one however. Thats what im getting at, it may be the most popular/most produced but that is partially due to how long theyve been aropund and the aftermarket thats in place already. Plus, a lot of companies make them, there not a one company deal like FN or Bushmaster.

Proven rifles you can pick your criteria, the SCAR for instance has passed a lot of military testing, even if the program was pretty much scrapped the Data is there, the XCR may not be a big law enforcement gun but competitors are using them carbine courses nationwide. (yep, the civilian sector adds legitamcy to a gun it doesnt need to be in military/LE use.)

The AR-15 is a fine rifle but many others can do it, besides if I get the ebretta id order through davidsons (davidsons warranty is great even if beretta's blows) and id buy once for my lifetime, over a lifetime 700 bucks aint all that much, look at when people buy cars, people spend an extra 5 grand for features theyll only have for 5 years.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

Thats what im getting at, it may be the most popular/most produced but that is partially due to how long theyve been aropund and the aftermarket thats in place already. Plus, a lot of companies make them, there not a one company deal like FN or Bushmaster.

Right, but the AR-15 wasn't the only thing around in its time. Why did the AR-15 take off in the civilian market, but the AR-18 didn't?

Originally Posted by k9870

Proven rifles you can pick your criteria, the SCAR for instance has passed a lot of military testing, even if the program was pretty much scrapped the Data is there, the XCR may not be a big law enforcement gun but competitors are using them carbine courses nationwide. (yep, the civilian sector adds legitamcy to a gun it doesnt need to be in military/LE use.)

Yep, just as I figured: We aren't talking about the same thing when we mean "proven".

When I say "proven", I don't just mean that the rifle needs to pass military tests. I dunno if you recall (since we've had this debate a bunch of times now), but I've never denied that the SCAR, XCR, ACR, etc. probably jam less and may even be more accurate than AR-15s. I know that they've fared well in tests; that is empirical evidence whose existence I cannot deny. But the question I'm asking, and which the DoD asks, and which you don't seem to ask, is whether those rifles have proven themselves relative to their cost. As I pointed out, those other rifles are all more expensive. So the question, have they proven themselves to be worth purchasing over an AR given their costs? If they don't offer some huge, spectacular advantage, they don't prove their worth.

Originally Posted by k9870

The AR-15 is a fine rifle but many others can do it, besides if I get the ebretta id order through davidsons (davidsons warranty is great even if beretta's blows) and id buy once for my lifetime, over a lifetime 700 bucks aint all that much, look at when people buy cars, people spend an extra 5 grand for features theyll only have for 5 years.

First of all, I'm of the opinion that buying anything besides a house in monthly payments is for people who want instant gratification and suck at saving money. If you really want this new gun, be patient and save. Plus, in the time it'll take you to save, you might get to read some range reports and read what other people have said. Then you'll know for sure if it's worthwhile.

Second, I find it strange that you're extolling the SCAR and XCR, and yet you seem so set on buying this new rifle by Beretta (a company whose military/LE rifles are some of its least notable products).