Just how difficult is it to manufacture automatic weaponry from scratch?

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by MT2008

First of all, what does "illegally manufactured" mean? When Izmash OKB claimed years ago that the AK was "illegally manufactured", they were referring to all of the former Soviet Bloc factories that are producing AKs without paying licensing or royalty fees.

Yep, by "illegal" I should have written "without a license, or a government's approval/sanction." And I wasn't talking about "assault weapons" (a nebulous term that is too ill-defined), but rather about fully-automatic guns.

Originally Posted by MT2008

And obviously, these guys aren't going to be able to duplicate weapons such as H&Ks or ARs that use plastic (well, maybe they could build an equivalent in wood or metal).

The wikipedia article on the M-16 claims that one could make a version out of wood and steel that would function identically to the more conventional models using composites in its construction, just with more weight. I don't know how true that actually is, but I'd definitely like to see what the result would look like (and how well it would perform).

Originally Posted by MT2008

In more developed countries, including the U.S., anyone can go to Home Depot and order a milling machine and dremel. I don't see why it would be all that difficult to set up a machine shop that could turn out illegally manufactured full-auto AKs and other weapons, provided it was done by a competent gunsmith.

That's why I find it hard to believe that people with a sufficient grudge against authority don't turn to making their own guns if it is perfectly feasible and has been done before under duress (witness the Sten and the PPS-43). Properly done, it could be more reliable than relying on gunrunners or the like. I wonder if it would be possible for people in an area where guns are tightly controlled to start making their own to fuel an insurgency/organized crime/armed rebellion. I could see that happening if, for example, the authorities ever manage to definitively shut down the flow of smuggled guns to the drug cartels in Mexico, or if the fires of rebellion take hold in a country where guns are tightly controlled (such as China).

Right now chemicals that could be used in illicit drug manufacturing are carefully controlled (such as the ingredients for crystal methamphetamine), as are chemicals that could be used in clandestine manufacturing of explosives (especially fertilizer). But I'm not sure the machines you could make guns with are that tightly controlled.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The wikipedia article on the M-16 claims that one could make a version out of wood and steel that would function identically to the more conventional models using composites in its construction, just with more weight. I don't know how true that actually is, but I'd definitely like to see what the result would look like (and how well it would perform).

Yes, there are homemade AR clones that have wooden lower receivers, and wood furniture. However, I'd expect they're going to be way, WAY less reliable than the mil-spec versions (which aren't exactly all that reliable to begin with).

You can also cast AR lowers rather than forge them, which is much easier to do, but those lowers also tend to be poor quality (a few major AR makers in the U.S. used to build weapons with cast lowers, and they faced a huge backlash).

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

That's why I find it hard to believe that people with a sufficient grudge against authority don't turn to making their own guns if it is perfectly feasible and has been done before under duress (witness the Sten and the PPS-43).

The reason this isn't done more often is because it would be redundant. Full-auto is highly overrated and unnecessary in anything smaller than a belt-fed machine gun (which is why every professional Western military force teaches its infantrymen to fire their rifles on semi). And as long as semi-auto AR-15s and AKs are readily available at FFLs in the U.S., there's no reason for criminals and domestic terrorists to go to the trouble of making their own versions. Criminals are mostly apolitical and indifferent to the gun control debate; they're not going to try and manufacture automatic weapons just as a big "fuck you" to the gun controllers.

But my point is that IF the Obama Administration were to ban production and sale of all semi-auto assault weapons tomorrow (politically impossible) AND confiscate all of the existing weapons in private hands (physically impossible), I think it would be quite feasible for criminal entrepreneurs to set up underground gun shops and capitalize upon the unfulfilled demand for AKs and ARs. And they'd probably go ahead and make them full-auto, since the law wouldn't distinguish between either type of "assault weapon". If it can be done in countries like Pakistan, it could definitely be done (better) in North America.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I could see that happening if, for example, the authorities ever manage to definitively shut down the flow of smuggled guns to the drug cartels in Mexico, or if the fires of rebellion take hold in a country where guns are tightly controlled (such as China).

First of all, nobody's going to shut down the flow of smuggled guns into Mexico. At the local and state level, the Mexican government, police, and military have been heavily corrupted and/or infiltrated by the cartels. Regardless of what the Obama Administration does to close down the flow of guns from Texas to Mexico, the cartels are powerful and wealthy enough that they'll always have sources of arms.

As for China, the PLA has been fighting against armed Uighur separatist groups in Xinjiang Province for decades now.

[Markost]

Blowback designs are easier to manufacture, just like the Holmes SMG.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Markost

Blowback designs are easier to manufacture, just like the Holmes SMG.

True, and there are already a zillion books that you can get at American gun shows or even off Amazon that provide instructions for building cheap, stamped sheet-metal SMGs with open-bolt actions.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by MT2008

True, and there are already a zillion books that you can get at American gun shows or even off Amazon that provide instructions for building cheap, stamped sheet-metal SMGs with open-bolt actions.

If the knowledge is really widespread, then why hasn't someone tried to manufacture the "AK-47" of SMGs ideal to the purposes of criminal/terrorist groups? Something cheap and easy to clandestinely manufacture and easily rechambered to fit local ammunition (as well as easily concealable) would be well suited for them, especially if arms traffickers prove unreliable.

While I will admit that accurate semiautomatic fire is best used with rifles, SMGs have nearly always included fully-automatic fire capability for CQB purposes. Fully-automatic weaponry really excels if you're trying to pull a Baruch Goldstein or a Hotel Mumbai as well. Being under fully automatic fire you can't really escape or hide from is uniquely terrifying to people who haven't been trained to keep their cool in such a situation.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

If the knowledge is really widespread, then why hasn't someone tried to manufacture the "AK-47" of SMGs ideal to the purposes of criminal/terrorist groups? Something cheap and easy to clandestinely manufacture and easily rechambered to fit local ammunition (as well as easily concealable) would be well suited for them, especially if arms traffickers prove unreliable.

Didn't I answer this question already? What would be the point of trying to manufacture full-auto AKs when there are 100 million of them in the world and they can be illegally purchased/imported with such ease? It would be redundant.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by MT2008

What would be the point of trying to manufacture full-auto AKs when there are 100 million of them in the world and they can be illegally purchased/imported with such ease? It would be redundant.

I said the "AK-47 of SMGs," in other words a fully-automatic SMG with the reliability and ease of construction of an AK-47. Something like that would be ideal for those with a predilection for indiscriminate carnage and mayhem since it would be more concealable than an AK-47 and could in theory be easier to get ammo for. It's probably a lot easier to get straw buyers to buy individually small amounts of pistol ammo that is then used for illicit, untraceable SMGs (since they never had serial numbers in the first place) than to buy rifle ammunition without raising lots of red flags.

From what I've seen, the "wrong people" will try to exploit gaps in law enforcement methods when they can. After using metal detectors on airplane passengers before they boarded became more common, the shoe bomber came along, succeeded by the underwear bomber after airports required potential passengers to take off their footwear. Once many stores started rejecting 50 and 100 dollar bills, I remember hearing that counterfeits of 20 dollar bills started to become more widespread--at least until paper currency authenticators started becoming more common. I guess the correct circumstances haven't arrived yet, though.

I'd call these hypothetical home-brew SMGs "Saturday Night Sundances" myself (based off the term "Saturday Night Special" used for junk guns), but the Sundance comes from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" when you want to go out guns blazing.

[Spartan198]

If I understood what the OP was asking correctly, then this topic about "Khyber Pass Guns" should be of relevance to this discussion.

http://forum.imfdb.org/showthread.php?t=1168