The Lord of War comes to the U.S.

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, it's not like holding gun stores accountable for their customers' actions at all. It's one thing for an FFL to sell a gun to a person who passes the NICS and shows no sign of being dangerous, who then uses the gun to kill somebody. Then the dealer has done nothing wrong or illegal (although personally, if I were an FFL and I sold a weapon that was used in a homicide, I would feel pretty bad about it).

What Bout has done is the equivalent of an FFL selling weapons repeatedly to fugitives who are wanted for multiple murders, when he knew exactly who they were and what they intended to use the weapons for. Any FFL who did that would go to jail, and likewise, an international arms dealer who sells to people like Mullah Omar or Charles Taylor deserves the same (or worse) punishment. He has to be held accountable for what he's done, and personally, I'm happy that it's us and not some disorganized bureaucratic international body that took custody of him.

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I know that. It's a metaphor. I assumed you were doing the same when you compared Bout to an American FFL in the first place?

Anyway, there are international laws regulating arms sales, too. Not all of Bout's sales violated internationl law, but some did - including the sale of RPGs and SAMs to Marxist FARC rebels, which is what he's being charged with. FARC is designated a terrorist organization by the U.S., EU, and many other countries, which means that selling them weapons is illegal. Especially since we have him on record telling his "customers" that the weapons he had to offer them would be ideal for shooting down U.S. Black Hawk helicopters.

The bottom line is, if you sell weapons to people who you know are prohibited from owning them, you get in trouble. This is true in both U.S. and international law. That's what Bout did, and that's why he's facing charges.

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

What do you mean by "the old fashioned way"?

Bout is going through the American criminal justice system because he was caught in a DEA operation, and charged by the DoJ. If he had been caught by someone else (Interpol, for instance), he would have gone through the appropriate system. But we caught him, so we get to prosecute him.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MT2008

What do you mean by "the old fashioned way"?

Hopefully, something like this:

Spook: "Are you Viktor Bout"
Bout: "Yes"
*pwert pwert*

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

Hopefully, something like this:

Spook: "Are you Viktor Bout"
Bout: "Yes"
*pwert pwert*

Yes I did mean that but I overlooked the part about the DEA in Colombia, this makes a bit more sense now.

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Bout is going through the American criminal justice system because he was caught in a DEA operation,

Well that makes a bit more sense then. So he got caught up in an ongoing operation as opposed to being specifically targeted because we got sick of him.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

Well that makes a bit more sense then. So he got caught up in an ongoing operation as opposed to being specifically targeted because we got sick of him.

No, we targeted him specifically. We've been trying to get him since Clinton was in office. But since the DEA (an American agency) caught him for conspiring to help kill Americans, isn't it fair that we get to prosecute him?

[Swordfish941]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, we targeted him specifically. We've been trying to get him since Clinton was in office. But since the DEA (an American agency) caught him for conspiring to help kill Americans, isn't it fair that we get to prosecute him?

Yes it is.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Swordfish941

Yes it is.

Amen. I also don't think this should be controversial to American gun owners, either. I think we should all be happy that Bout no longer will be able to sell weapons to the most reprehensible killers on the planet, some of whom would use those weapons to kill Americans.

We live in a messed-up world where bad people win and go unpunished all the time. It's nice to see the good guys win every once in a while. And this is one of those times.

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

We should just kill him. The trial is going to take forever

First of all, as long as he's in custody and not selling weapons, that by itself is important.

Second, the case against him is very, very strong. And as slow as the American justice system can be, it's still better than some messed-up international court (where killers like Slobodan Milosevic and Foday Sankoh actually died in custody before they could face trial).

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, we targeted him specifically. We've been trying to get him since Clinton was in office. But since the DEA (an American agency) caught him for conspiring to help kill Americans, isn't it fair that we get to prosecute him?

We should just kill him. The trial is going to take forever

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, we targeted him specifically. We've been trying to get him since Clinton was in office. But since the DEA (an American agency) caught him for conspiring to help kill Americans, isn't it fair that we get to prosecute him?

Heart of the argument right here: Matters such as that shouldn't be handled by a law enforcement agency such as the DEA. The DoJ shouldn't be concerning itself with activities in foreign countries like this. Our involvement in Colombia is akin to our involvement in Vietnam, but longer, quieter, and with federal agents in place of real soldiers; a small struggling country with some left-leaning civil war issues that we give some half assed support to for far too long without accomplishing anything because it wouldn't be politically prudent to do so.