The Lord of War comes to the U.S.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MT2008

(death by lethal injection, if I had my way).

In favor of just a slap on the wrist, eh?

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

In favor of just a slap on the wrist, eh?

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

Selling arms to people who really want every man, woman, and child in America to die should get him a heavier punishment than waiting around in jail for 10-30 years and then a painless death if he hasn't already died of natural causes

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

Selling arms to people who really want every man, woman, and child in America to die should get him a heavier punishment than waiting around in jail for 10-30 years and then a painless death if he hasn't already died of natural causes

What you're saying then is that he is responsible for the attitudes and intentions of his customers. It's not like he had a specific anti-American agenda, he's just a businessman, a neutral player, just antagonistic as he was beneficial. Anyway, in the business of killing implements, it's generally accepted that your wares will be used to kill people, it's the nature of the trade.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

No, it's not like holding gun stores accountable for their customers' actions at all. It's one thing for an FFL to sell a gun to a person who passes the NICS and shows no sign of being dangerous, who then uses the gun to kill somebody. Then the dealer has done nothing wrong or illegal (although personally, if I were an FFL and I sold a weapon that was used in a homicide, I would feel pretty bad about it).

What Bout has done is the equivalent of an FFL selling weapons repeatedly to fugitives who are wanted for multiple murders, when he knew exactly who they were and what they intended to use the weapons for. Any FFL who did that would go to jail, and likewise, an international arms dealer who sells to people like Mullah Omar or Charles Taylor deserves the same (or worse) punishment. He has to be held accountable for what he's done, and personally, I'm happy that it's us and not some disorganized bureaucratic international body that took custody of him.

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, it's not like holding gun stores accountable for their customers' actions at all. It's one thing for an FFL to sell a gun to a person who passes the NICS and shows no sign of being dangerous, who then uses the gun to kill somebody. Then the dealer has done nothing wrong or illegal (although personally, if I were an FFL and I sold a weapon that was used in a homicide, I would feel pretty bad about it).

What Bout has done is the equivalent of an FFL selling weapons repeatedly to fugitives who are wanted for multiple murders, when he knew exactly who they were and what they intended to use the weapons for. Any FFL who did that would go to jail, and likewise, an international arms dealer who sells to people like Mullah Omar or Charles Taylor deserves the same (or worse) punishment. He has to be held accountable for what he's done, and personally, I'm happy that it's us and not some disorganized bureaucratic international body that took custody of him.

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I know that. It's a metaphor. I assumed you were doing the same when you compared Bout to an American FFL in the first place?

Anyway, there are international laws regulating arms sales, too. Not all of Bout's sales violated internationl law, but some did - including the sale of RPGs and SAMs to Marxist FARC rebels, which is what he's being charged with. FARC is designated a terrorist organization by the U.S., EU, and many other countries, which means that selling them weapons is illegal. Especially since we have him on record telling his "customers" that the weapons he had to offer them would be ideal for shooting down U.S. Black Hawk helicopters.

The bottom line is, if you sell weapons to people who you know are prohibited from owning them, you get in trouble. This is true in both U.S. and international law. That's what Bout did, and that's why he's facing charges.

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

What do you mean by "the old fashioned way"?

Bout is going through the American criminal justice system because he was caught in a DEA operation, and charged by the DoJ. If he had been caught by someone else (Interpol, for instance), he would have gone through the appropriate system. But we caught him, so we get to prosecute him.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MT2008

What do you mean by "the old fashioned way"?

Hopefully, something like this:

Spook: "Are you Viktor Bout"
Bout: "Yes"
*pwert pwert*

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

Hopefully, something like this:

Spook: "Are you Viktor Bout"
Bout: "Yes"
*pwert pwert*

Yes I did mean that but I overlooked the part about the DEA in Colombia, this makes a bit more sense now.

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Bout is going through the American criminal justice system because he was caught in a DEA operation,

Well that makes a bit more sense then. So he got caught up in an ongoing operation as opposed to being specifically targeted because we got sick of him.