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MT2008 01-31-2009 04:12 AM
Heckler & Koch - overrated?
 
Dunno how many of you have seen this, but a while ago, Larry Correia (from The High Road) wrote this piece. It's pretty funny, and I suppose partially true:

Quote:
HK. Because you suck. And we hate you.

An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department:

In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.

At HK, we stuck a piston on an AR15, just like a bunch of other companies have done, dating back to about 1969. However ours is better, because we refuse to sell it to civilians. Because you suck, and we hate you.

Our XM8 is the greatest rifle ever developed. It may melt, and it doesn’t fit any accessories known to man, but that is your fault. If you were a real operator, you would love it. Once again, look at Rainbow Six, that G36 sure is cool isn’t it? Yeah, you know you want one.And by the way, check out our new HK45. We decided that humans don’t need to release the magazine with their thumbs. If you were a really manly teutonic operator, you would be able to reach the controls. Plus we’ve fired 100,000,000 rounds through one with zero malfunctions, and that was while it was buried in a lake of molten lava, on the moon. If you don’t believe us, it is because you aren’t a real operator.

By the way, our cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns like the G3 and MP5 are the bestest things ever, and totally worth asinine scalpers prices, but note that cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns from other countries are commie garbage. Not that it matters, because you’re civilians, so we won’t sell them to you anyway. Because you suck, and we hate you, but we know you’ll be back. We can beat you down like a trailer park wife, but you’ll come back, you always do.

Buy our stuff.

Sincerely

HK Marketing Department

HK. Because you suck. And we hate you.

I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m not the biggest fan of H und K. I posted that letter on THR a long time ago as a joke, but it sure did manage to tick a lot of people off. Ironically, the tag line, HK. Because you suck. And we hate you, has been popping up in various places ever since.

Sure, they’re decently reliable, decently accurate guns, but they’re massively overpriced and overrated by legions of fan boys. One of the most frustrating things about dealing with gun people on the interweb is that folks tend to pick a brand, and then base some of their self-esteem on that brand. Kind of like rabid sports fans who feel the need to burn cars if their team wins, or loses, or they just felt like burning stuff. Say something negative about that team to one of those rabid fans, and you’re probably going to get beat up. Likewise, if you say anything negative about the Teutonic superiority of HK, people get mad at you.

Well, I love hate mail, so here goes.

For each of their wunder guns, you can get something else that costs a lot less, and works better, and has ergonomics designed by people that actually shoot. HK came about when some Nazis fled to Spain and built the Cetme. But Cetme doesn’t sound very tough, does it? So they went back to Germany and became H and K, and if you call it H and K, fan boys will get mad, and insist that it is HK, because manly Teutonic operators and Navy SEALs don’t have time to say the word And. So HK rose to prominence by building the G3, which is what the Germans call the Cetme.

Now the G3 is a decent rifle. It is a cheap, stamped sheet metal, battle rifle. It has terrible ergonomics, with a hard to use safety, (and this is coming from a guy with gorilla hands), and difficult to use charging handle. It is reliable, because of the roller locking bolt that destroys your brass, and recoils worse than other competing .308 rifles. The FAL smokes the G3, and the only reason the G3 exists is because the Germans were too proud to pay royalties to those uppity Belgians.

The G3 can be really accurate, if you weld a bunch of metal to the sides of it, stick on a nice barrel, and jack the price up $10,000. And no, that’s not a typo. The PSG1 is absurdly priced, and the cheaper version, the MSG90 is proof that if make anything absurdly heavy enough, it can be accurate.

There is a collapsible stock available, which is awesome, if you like getting hit in the face with a piece of rebar, which is what their $400 stock feels like when you shoot it. Germans must be tougher than we are or something.

Other stamped, sheet metal guns exist, but HK fan boys mock those as commie garbage. See, if you build a cheap gun, but it is from Germany, then it is superior, but if you build a stamped gun in the eastern block (a hundred miles from Germany) then it is commie garbage.

But what brought HK to international fame and the cover of Dick Marcinko books (for example, Rogue Force Delta Green Team 7 Ninja Force Alpha II: The beginning) was the G3s little brother, the MP5. Take a G3, shrink it, and chamber it in 9mm. At the time, CQB doctrine was to use 9mm subguns. Now the MP5 is a neat little gun. I have two. They work well, and if compared to the other subguns of the day, like the Uzi or the Mac, then the MP5 was a lot easier to use, easier to hit with, and was decently reliable.

The MP5 became famous when the SAS used them to kick the living hell out of some bad guys at the Iranian embassy. This was marketing gold, and HK rode the wave. Pretty soon everybody wanted an MP5. It was what all the cool kids were using. Soon every video game and action movie was filled with HK stuff. HK may have overrated guns, but they’ve got the best marketing department in the gun business, and they milked that fee cow until it was dry.

But the MP5 isn’t as great as people make them out to be. They still malfunction. (if you’re favorite gun hasn’t malfed, you haven’t shot it enough). The mags are hard to insert on a closed bolt. Safety still sucks. Most versions don’t have a bolt hold open. Honestly, if I had to get into a gunfight with a subgun, then I would rather have my PPsH.

HK long guns were mostly unobtainable to US civilians, primarily because HK hates the civilian market. If you don’t believe me, go talk to them at SHOT show, and watch them sneer at regular people. They can’t help themselves. But like all unobtainable things, like Ferraris, and super models, regular folks start to imagine these unobtainable things as perfection, when really they’re just an expensive car that spends most of its time in the shop, or a chick with mental problems and Bulimia. That’s what happened with HK. Their products took on this aura of coolness amongst the fans, that just isn’t real.

For example, go to any thread on the internet where somebody brings up “What is the Best Rifle EVAR!” and there is a poll. On the poll will be some HK long guns that 99.85% of the gun owning public has never seen, let alone shot, but those guns will have the most votes, because the HK marketing department told you how awesome they are.

Read up about the XM8 on most gun boards. According to the interweb, the XM8 is the finest combat implement of all time. In actuality it is a plastic AR18, that tends to melt, break, and is universally loathed by the Army staff that had to test it. It takes bizarre attachments, so no US accessories will work. They took the G36, which is basically a blah rifle, used by a handful of countries that don’t ever actually shoot people, and uglied it up so that it looks like the demented lovechild of Bloaty the Pizza Hog and a Super-Soaker.

Or the HK416. According to the internet, the HK416 is the best gun EVER! It is called THE AWESOME. Lightning bolts of coolness fly from the gun and smite your enemies with Teutonic fury! However you can’t have one, because you’re a civilian, ergo, you suck. And HK hates you.

The 416 is basically an AR with a gas piston, which has been done by like ten companies now, but somehow the HK is better, because it was on Future Weapons, and HK won’t sell it to civilians. In fact, a couple of 416s slipped out into civilian hands, and HK freaked out about it. There is no legal reason that 416 uppers can’t be sold, but HK despises regular people, and the idea of you having their long guns offends them.

You can get civilian HK long guns, once in a while, when HK feels like it, but they’re usually hyper-neutered and over priced. Hell, the last ones were actually grey, because you know, black is too dangerous, or something.

HK’s new subgun is the UMP. They tend to break. One of our local PDs traded all of theirs in after they broke all the stocks. Cool idea, because everybody loves .45, but bad execution.

MT2008 01-31-2009 04:12 AM
More (post length limits! Ugh)

Quote:
HK’s flagship pistols, the USP line, are decent polymer handguns. They are extremely reliable, that is the plus side. On the down side, their triggers universally suck, but they don’t have to. HK likes to use a square peg in a round hole, (literally) that makes the trigger pull a lot heavier and grittier than it needs to be. Why? Beats the heck out of me. The USP series should be reliable, they’re enormous.

The most annoying thing about the HK pistols is how they cost almost twice as much as every other polymer handgun on the market. Somehow being made in Germany means the USP series is worth $800-$1000, when all of the polymer guns made within a thousand miles are $400-$600. Only most of those guns tend to have better triggers, are just as reliable, and are usually more accurate.

Then there is the Mk23. Which is huge, accurate, reliable, (which it damn well better be, since it is the size and weight of a Mini-14) costs as much as a used car, huge, and is universally despised by the SF that it is issued to. Talk to anyone that is in an SF unit. The Mk23s they’ve been issued sit unused in arms room. Did I mention that it is HUGE? But that’s okay, because the HK fan boys will explain that it is an OFFENSIVE handgun. (scratches head) whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

They are reliable, but so is a $125 Makarov. Only the Mak has a better trigger.

I have two guys that I work with that have been to the HK armorer’s school. If you think I’m biased, you should talk to them. They especially love working with the Germans. One fellow was yelled at because he had two magazines clamped together on his MP5, because “NEIN! That is not the H und K way!” Even though he had bought the mag clamp from HK. When you ask why the original MP5 doesn’t have a last shot bolt hold open, they’ll yell at you and say, “NEIN! Why would you want your enemy to know your gun is empty!” Hell, Hans, I just want to know when my gun is empty!

One friend of mine took his personal MP5, and cut an extra notch into the collapsible stock, so it would be shorter for when he was wearing his armor, and also it removed the nasty wobble that all HK collapsible stocks have. It is an easy fix, and a no-brainer that the HK should have been doing for years. Fritz at the armorer’s school damn near had an aneurism when he saw this blasphemy against his ineffectual German gods.

Look, gun owning public, just because you saw it on Future Weapons, or read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it true. For the love of John Moses Browning, before you formulate super strong opinions about a weapon, you should have at least shot the damn thing first.

Do I have anything positive to say about HK? Yes, the sneer of disdain they give you at SHOT is priceless and entertaining.
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/20...d-we-hate-you/

Gunmaster45 01-31-2009 01:24 PM
I read this a while ago and I agree, H&K is kind of over rated. They cost too much and us civies can't touch them. What we can touch is the ugly "nuetered" guns like the HK94, and only people with the right liscenses can even attempt to make them look like MP5s.

And it does annoy me how they basically dominate the screen in movies, because we even see street thugs wielding MP5Ks. How do they afford or aquire these? Movie logic. Rainbow Six: Vegas also shows how H&K rapes the gaming genre so all those idiots on Xbox Live playing COD4 for the first time and then play Vegas will think they know it all and H&K is the best.

I've seriously met kids like this. I've schooled more than one kid who thought he was hot shit with nothing to show for it.

So basically, this guy tells it like it is.

MT2008 01-31-2009 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 519)
I read this a while ago and I agree, H&K is kind of over rated. They cost too much and us civies can't touch them. What we can touch is the ugly "nuetered" guns like the HK94, and only people with the right liscenses can even attempt to make them look like MP5s.

And it does annoy me how they basically dominate the screen in movies, because we even see street thugs wielding MP5Ks. How do they afford or aquire these? Movie logic. Rainbow Six: Vegas also shows how H&K rapes the gaming genre so all those idiots on Xbox Live playing COD4 for the first time and then play Vegas will think they know it all and H&K is the best.

I've seriously met kids like this. I've schooled more than one kid who thought he was hot shit with nothing to show for it.

So basically, this guy tells it like it is.
I must admit that I would have been one of those "kids" for the better part of my life. I've never been a particularly passionate H&K fan to begin with, but if you'd asked me a year ago if H&Ks were the best, I probably would have told "yes" without really thinking about why I was saying that. At one point, my user page here on IMFDB listed the USP amongst my favorite guns and said that I wanted to own one (even though I had never shot one at that point).

Once I actually did have the chance to try out the USP, I was...well, underwhelmed. It's an excellent pistol in many ways, though I've discovered I'm not such a fan of the mag release and the trigger pull is quite long and stiff, just as Larry says. I don't quite agree with him that the USP is comparable to a Glock - I've fired plenty of Glocks, and I've never liked the feel of the handle and backstrap because it feels like the mass of the gun is above and in front of rather than in my hand. So I would say I prefer the grip of the USP over Glocks. But still, considering that H&K fans always talk about how the USP is the best handgun ever, and considering it costs $300 more than any Glock, I can definitely say that it didn't live up to the hype for me.

The only other H&K I've fired is a PTR-91 (semi-auto G3 clone). It was handed to me loaded, so I never got to see if the charging handle was as hard to use as Larry says. The main thing I remember about it was how much I hated the "slimline" forearm, which all of the early G3s also used to have. It's basically too narrow to get a comfortable grip - and I say that as someone who doesn't have particularly big hands. Of course, H&K later switched over to the "tropical" (wide) type forearms on all of the roller-locked guns, but fact is, most of the G3s ever manufactured had the slimline forearm. It makes me question H&K's sense of ergonomics that they made the G3 with this style of forearm in the first place.

I've had the chance to handle but not fire a few of H&K's machine guns, including several MP5s and a G36K. The G36 series looks really cool in movies, but I've never understood what's so special about it, besides the fact that it's basically Armalite technology in polymer, combined with a whole bunch of ideas stolen from the SIG SG-550 series (like the folding stock and the translucent magazines that clip together).

Gunmaster45 01-31-2009 04:40 PM
I only put some rounds through a customers USP-45 once and I liked it. The ambidextrous mag release takes a little getting used to but it works after some time. The trigger was fixed by the my dad so it shot great. And plus, you can see in Collateral that Tom Cruise didn't have much trouble with the mag release when he does 2 second reloads.

I've held some MP5s and thought they had a nice feel but the selector was indeed annoying to use. I did a fe "HK-slaps" with the bolt, which I thought was cool. God knows how cool everyone knows it is in movies.


I despise the Mk 23 SOCOM of all the HK guns. It is as big as a Desert Eagle .50, and it fires 12 .45 ACPs. Isn't a USP-45 exactly the same. I'd rather use USP-45 Tactical than a SOCOM. Just add a slide lock for single shot cocking and it is the same damn thing.

And I've shot a Glock 17 1st Gen and a Glock 19 2nd Gen and both fit my hand pretty well. The 19 had a peep sight and a flashing laser in the guide rod. It was cool.

Although irrelavent, I put some rounds through two guns that made my hand a tad sore. First I grabbed a Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip (I just called it a Persuader for simplicity) and put 5 rounds through it, some ONE HANDED. Not as bad as some have told me. I wasn't aiming at any targets though so I just saw the effects of birshot (and one mean ass buckshot) in the snow.

The second was my Ruger Super Redhawk. I got a 3" group at 30yds. It hurt the webbing of my thumb but was pretty accurate. I probably could have shot better if it wasn't for accursed "Magnum flinch". It faded after about 20 rounds or so but my hand was too sore to shoot more.

Nyles 01-31-2009 07:31 PM
USP isn't a bad pistol, it work's well, the trigger is just fine for combat accuracy, and I actually like the push-down style mag release. The only problem is it's a big, bulky gun - light enough, but quite frankly between my frag vest, my tac vest, my respirator carrier and all the random shit I put in my pockets, I want something smaller. My personal favorite modern pistol? Call me crazy, but the Springfield XD. If they'd let me carry one I would.

As for their other stuff, I also dislike the selector on their long guns, and their collapsing stocks are nothing short of awful. Give me a C8 any day.

Excalibur 01-31-2009 10:46 PM
Oh I am with you Nyles, I've held and fired an XD and it feels supremely better than any Glock I've ever fired. I wanted to get one, but I settled for a Glock 22 for the moment because I couldn't afford an XD.

I've held a mk23 and yeah, it is big and I would pick a USP over that and even the USP is kinda beefy in my opinion. I've fired an MP5A3 before and it's as good as it says it is.

I do play a lot of video games and the one game I've always come across is the Rainbow Six game, the entire Vega series is almost comprised of H&K guns, Vegas 2 was good enough that it included guns from other countries like FNC, L85A1, the REC7, an SR25, and even a chinese SMG - the type 05 for some odd reason.

Gunmaster45 01-31-2009 11:43 PM
I've only rented RS:V 2 but it was fun. Harder than the first one though. I did like the addition of the new guns, but I don't like that you have to earn points to unlock new guns. During a firefight, I want to survive, not worry about head shots and shooting through walls for points. I liked it better when you got it when you found it.

And the Glock 18 needs an extended mag for christ sakes. 10 rounders and no upgrades makes it useless. And no M4? Who wants a damn REC7, gimme a SWAT gun! I'd even settle for a 416, since these games are HK's cash cow anyway.

And they could fix some of the reloads, a few of them aren't right. (and the G3 has a 30 round mag even though it is clearly a 20).

Yournamehere 02-01-2009 12:33 AM
That article was so cheeky I posted it on my other board for others to read. There are plenty of HK fanboys there, especially 416-whores, so I can't wait for a response.

As far as my own humble opinion, I think you guys have covered most if not all of what I'd say. I still dig the USP, MP5, and G3, though I fully agree in the faults of design, but that's me.

MT2008 02-01-2009 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 522)
I despise the Mk 23 SOCOM of all the HK guns. It is as big as a Desert Eagle .50, and it fires 12 .45 ACPs. Isn't a USP-45 exactly the same. I'd rather use USP-45 Tactical than a SOCOM. Just add a slide lock for single shot cocking and it is the same damn thing.
The Mark 23 is, I hear, way more accurate that the USP 45, and much easier to control (which it should be, considering how huge it is). But that's not saying much, because USPs are still way more accurate than most shooters could ever hope to be. That being said, I think Larry was a bit too hard on H&K. The Mark 23 was designed for the SOCOM "Offensive Handgun" competition, so it was a dumb idea by the DoD, not by H&K. The Colt entry that the Mark 23 beat was just as huge and unwieldy.

The main thing I hate about the Mark 23 is the people who buy them - basically, the same kinds of folks who would buy a Desert Eagle or any other ridiculously huge handgun. They're the kinds of people who want to be able to brag "mine's bigger than yours!" I'm sure not all Mark 23 owners are like this, but too many of the ones I've met are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 523)
UThe only problem is it's a big, bulky gun
Very true, but the Compact is a much better size. If I were to buy a USP, I would probably go for the Compact. But then again, I just shoot guns at the range and don't have a carry permit, so size is less of an issue to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yournamehere (Post 530)
There are plenty of HK fanboys there, especially 416-whores, so I can't wait for a response.
The people who hype the 416 annoy the shit out of me. I can't believe how times I've had to explain to H&K fanboys that, contrary to what HKPRO claims, they did NOT come up with the idea of putting a short-stroke piston in an M16. That I knew long before I ever read Larry Correia's article.

Excalibur 02-01-2009 04:26 AM
I read about articles about other companies that made the short-stroke pistol idea after I was hyped about the 416, so after that, the 416 isn't the special anymore, I'd like to buy a rifle with that system but not pay the price H&K is putting out for it. You know how much the H&K is selling their civilian verison of their 416s and 417s?

Nyles 02-01-2009 08:49 AM
Saw one in Edmonton today for $4500. Also played with an HK 45 - wasn't all that impressed, all the same complaints as the USP.

Problem with the USP Compact is that it's onlt got about a 3.5" barrel, and that's too short for a service pistol.

Excalibur 02-01-2009 09:05 AM
That's the point. It's a carry conceal weapon or backup, for a service pistol, you get a full size handgun

Nyles 02-01-2009 09:33 AM
Yes, but I was talking about a service pistol. I don't carry concealed, I carry at work.

MT2008 02-01-2009 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 536)
Yes, but I was talking about a service pistol. I don't carry concealed, I carry at work.
But you guys are still mandated to carry the Browning HP, no? Out of curiosity, what do you think CF should adopt as its new service pistol? The XD?

MT2008 02-01-2009 04:58 PM
Also, out of curiosity, has anyone noticed what Larry claims about G3's recoil? That it's worse than that of other .308 battle rifles? I've fired an M1A and a DSA FAL (both owned by an uncle) and never noticed a difference between them and the PTR-91 I fired.

Excalibur 02-01-2009 10:55 PM
Maybe Larry has a weak shooting position and gets kicked back by the recoil.

Nyles 02-01-2009 11:57 PM
Most carry the old Inglis Hi Power, MPs and Naval Boarding Parties are issued P225s, sometimes you see others carrying them as well. I actually don't think we should issue the XD, since the support for it just isn't there. There have been rumors for awhile of P226s, but the fact is that new pistols are just not a priority, nor should they be. Pistols don't win wars, and there are things we need far more that can.

Excalibur 02-02-2009 12:20 AM
Pistols might not win a fire fight in a war, but it sure helps to have the best sidearm you can get your hands on.

MT2008 02-02-2009 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 547)
Most carry the old Inglis Hi Power, MPs and Naval Boarding Parties are issued P225s, sometimes you see others carrying them as well. I actually don't think we should issue the XD, since the support for it just isn't there. There have been rumors for awhile of P226s, but the fact is that new pistols are just not a priority, nor should they be. Pistols don't win wars, and there are things we need far more that can.
Actually, in the kinds of wars we fight nowadays, high-tech weaponry of any sort is generally of secondary importance to proper intel, but I guess that's another issue...

If the CF were holding trials for a new sidearm, what would you prefer? The P226 is definitely another good choice, but it's an aging design nowadays.

MT2008 02-02-2009 10:03 PM
BTW, this is Larry Correia's response to some of the controversy his article generated. I swear, it's too bad he doesn't do this kinda stuff for a living:

Quote:
Ahh… fanboys


I check my blog stats once in awhile to see where hits are coming from. The most popular thing I’ve written on here is still the HK. Because you suck. And we hate you mega rant. That thing makes the rounds across all sorts of boards. It has showed up on every gun board, car boards, video game boards, and even the Scented Candle Emporium & Teddy Bear Hospital forum.

I follow these links back, and reading the HK Fanboy hate that is expressed is always priceless. Let me give you an example of one that I just read:

http://3dgamenight.com/forums/m_219219/mpage_2/tm.htm Post #34

Some dude named Zissky states that “it isn’t an accident that the extreme vast majority of both military and LE agencies around the world choose HK over all others”

HA HA HA Snort! You’ve got to be friggin’ kidding me. Okay, maybe back in the glory days of us using 9mm subguns and MP5s, but now? Okay, how many PDs carry HK? How many carry Glock? I’m not a Glock fan by any stretch of the imagination, but they own the domestic LE market. Since the “extreme vast majority” uses HK, and last I checked, Glock owns the market, I’m having a hard time figuring that one out.

Military? Okay, you’ve got… Germany, obviously. Spain, because you know, they do a lot of fighting. (blow up a subway and the whole country surrenders). And… Lithuania? Seriously, I do believe Lith SF uses a G36, or at least they had them in Afghanistan while our local SF group was deployed there. Then there are a handful of other countries that have been conned by the conniving Tutons into buying the melty rifle. Which is pretty sad, because a couple decades ago they managed to trick like 50 countries into buying the G3 (and most of them found themselves wishing they had gone with the FAL, but didn’t want to deal with those uppity Belgians)

There are a handful of people that do this stuff for a living that choose HK. Good for them. Most of the professional firearms instructors I know carry A. What their department mandates. B. Glock. C. A 1911 variant. Or D. Everything else. And D is made up of a lot of stuff, and in the years that I’ve been in the gun business, I’ve known a couple of professionals that chose the HK pistol. And usually they’re blessed with the Germanic 4th Knuckle Master Grip that allows them to shoot the damn thing and its horrible trigger.

I suppose “The Extreme Vast Majority” of LE and military refers to people playing Rainbow Six. Or he heard it on Future Weapons, so it must be real.

But this is the stuff that I enjoy. “the article was pure comedy, btw the guy has no penis or the money to afford a proper weapon and will probably be settling for his SW auto and his SKS but that’s for another thread”

Okay, random internet guy, let me address your concerns. Yes, the article was comedy. It made me laugh writing it. Next, I do in fact have a penis. I’m rather proud of it. And no, this is not the kind of site where I will post pictures of it for you.

As for the money to afford a proper weapon, I own a… wait for it… MACHINE GUN STORE. I have a couple of guns. Since I post under my own name, anybody can drop by my shop (which actually exists in Draper, Utah, on Earth, and not just on the internet) and see the HK machine guns that we own. (I know, critiquing something that you actually have experience with, rather than taking Future Weapons at its word? Shocking)

That kind of post always makes me laugh. Anytime a rabid fanboy reads a criticism of their chosen (overpriced) brand, then obviously the person doing the criticism must be poor. It’s kind of like that one douchebag that asked “what is your life worth” because if you didn’t carry an HK, then it wasn’t worth much. Your life is worth what it costs me to hire a crack head to kill you. Period. Just because you suck with money, and make poor purchasing decisions, and feel the need to blow $800-$1000 on a polymer handgun with poor ergonomics and a horrible trigger, or $1600+ on a neutered 10 shot rifle with a thumbhole stock, doesn’t make you a bad ass gunslinger.

Rabid fanboys (not limited to just HK, but occurring with all brands, across all spectrums of the universe, from cars to blenders) always assume that the person they’re talking to is ignorant. I’m willing to go out on a limb and bet that I’ve shot more rounds through HK weapons that your average HK fanboy. (unless you count the rounds fired while playing Call Of Duty 4, because then they’ve probably got me beat pretty handily, but I’m talking about actual bullets, from a real gun).

As for the SW auto or the SKS, why yes, I would actually take a new production SW 1911 or M&P over a USP any day of the week. But what do I know? I actually shoot guns, rather than just talk about them on the internet. As for the SKS, people that actually know how to shoot don’t make fun of them. When you aren’t hanging a bunch of cheap plastic garbage and faulty 30 round mags off of them, they actually work well, have a better trigger and usually shoot a better group than a G3.

Only I can buy 2 dozen decent SKS rifles for the price of a single original G3 and arm an entire Girl Scout troop. But darn it, then I couldn’t brag on the internet about how super awesome my gun is because it was expensive, and built in Germany. Which is ironic, since a couple of days ago, I posted a picture of myself with an MG3… But then again, what do I know? I’m just jealous of your fancy HK.

Gunmaster45 02-02-2009 11:07 PM
This guy is great. I'd take a 1911 over any HK gun because I'm a 1911 nut. If someone feels the need to diss the Great John Browning's design, It'd better be backed up.

I've met millions of those little dick weeds online who talk big talk (and diss your man hood) even though they have all their experiance in COD4. Mainly Youtube is filled with people like this. (Youtube is a HOSTILE place. The lighest joke is met with insults and violence. It's like a room littered with mouse traps. Make the wrong step and it all goes to hell.)

And having put rounds through 3 types of SKS rifles, (one iron sights/wood stock, one synthetic stock, and one wood stock with an illuminated scope reticle). Accurate guns despite their cheap price and look.

I was seriously laughing for ten minutes (spewed my soda) when I read that thing about him not having a penis.

I don't have as much experiance with HK guns or many others so I usually know when I'm overstepping my boundaries. But if it is rare, I always make sure to shoot it so I can say I did.

That's why I've shot ARs, SKSs, Garands, Mini-14s, M1 Carbines, whatever works. Sadly, I've NEVER SHOT AN AK. Held plenty, but never got trigger time on one. But I will one day. One day....

Nyles 02-03-2009 03:21 AM
Don't really feel that the P226 is all that old of a design, espescially the new ones with the rail. My only complaints about the Browning are that many of them are worn out, they're not all that safe to carry with a round chambered, and the lousy Hi Power trigger. The P226 fixes the two that are design issues, and any new pistol fixes the first and most pressing.

As for if they were to actually replace the Hi Power, the P226 would be the way to go, big reason being that the drills are almost the same as the P225. Simplifies training considerably, and won't cause problems if we leave the P225 in service for the small handed among us (and pilots / tankers who could use an extra compact weapon).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 550)
Actually, in the kinds of wars we fight nowadays, high-tech weaponry of any sort is generally of secondary importance to proper intel, but I guess that's another issue...

If the CF were holding trials for a new sidearm, what would you prefer? The P226 is definitely another good choice, but it's an aging design nowadays.

MT2008 02-03-2009 03:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 563)
This guy is great. I'd take a 1911 over any HK gun because I'm a 1911 nut. If someone feels the need to diss the Great John Browning's design, It'd better be backed up.
Well, I think that's more a matter of particular brands of 1911 versus H&K. Though I guess nobody should say they would take an H&K over an original Colt, or something good like an STI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 563)
And having put rounds through 3 types of SKS rifles, (one iron sights/wood stock, one synthetic stock, and one wood stock with an illuminated scope reticle). Accurate guns despite their cheap price and look.
No doubt, I have respect for the design. That being said, I think it's rather odd to compare the SKS to the G3, considering they're completely different types of rifles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 563)
That's why I've shot ARs, SKSs, Garands, Mini-14s, M1 Carbines, whatever works. Sadly, I've NEVER SHOT AN AK. Held plenty, but never got trigger time on one. But I will one day. One day....
Wow, really? Well, I guess I should talk. Despite all I know about AKs, I've only fired the one I own 4 times. And I've had it for almost 5 years now (since I was 18).

I haven't fired a Garand, though. Weirdly, my paternal grandfather (who is a WWII vet) asks me all the time why I haven't, and all I can say is, "Nobody I know owns one." I guess I would like to, though I am really not a fan of the .30-.06 (my dad used to own a Winchester Model 70 in that caliber).

MT2008 02-03-2009 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 574)
Don't really feel that the P226 is all that old of a design, espescially the new ones with the rail. My only complaints about the Browning are that many of them are worn out, they're not all that safe to carry with a round chambered, and the lousy Hi Power trigger. The P226 fixes the two that are design issues, and any new pistol fixes the first and most pressing.

As for if they were to actually replace the Hi Power, the P226 would be the way to go, big reason being that the drills are almost the same as the P225. Simplifies training considerably, and won't cause problems if we leave the P225 in service for the small handed among us (and pilots / tankers who could use an extra compact weapon).
Oh, I'm as big a fan of the P226 as anyone (I own one), but I figured you'd prefer something more recent, with a polymer frame to cut down on the weight. The SIG Pro, for example, would also be easy to use for guys trained on the P225. It field-strips a little differently, but the basic layout of the controls and most components is similar.

Also, I'm of the opinion that the newer American-made milled-slide P226s (all of the railed ones have this) are inferior to the older German-made guns with stamped slides, like the one I own.

And BTW...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 534)
Also played with an HK 45 - wasn't all that impressed, all the same complaints as the USP.
The HK45 strikes me as one of the dumbest ideas they've come up with yet. It's bigger than a USP-45 (which is already big enough), and yet it only holds 10 rounds? Where's the appeal in that?

Gunmaster45 02-03-2009 09:20 PM
I've always liked the .30-06 round but it's a little heavier to handle than a .223 or a .308. The Garand's weight and gas operation handles the recoil quite well and I really like it. Can't imagine how vets in WWII or Korea liked it though, 9.5lbs gets annoying quick. I really like the M1 Carbine, but the example I own is in poor condition. It was a 'Nam issued Carbine, captured and use by the ARVN troops before being liberated back in US hands. The gun has a hairline crack on the bottom of the stock (under the reciever) and the wood guard over the barrel falls off a lot (especially during shooting). But the gun was light and held a lot of bullets for its day. One day I hope to own a better example for shooting (but I'll find an original, not one of those Auto Ordinance rip-offs.)

To me, a 1911 is the best you make of it. If you want a good gun to shoot rounds through or carry for protection, go out and buy a new Kimber, S&W, or whatever you fancy. For me, I like to think that the best gun is the one you build for yourself. That's why I like Colt Series 70s. They are very customizable and convertable. One day I'll build my dream .45 for carrying out of one. Add a nice compensator, bevelled mag well, extended safety and slide release, maybe some elavated night sights. No beavertail though, I hate them.

Yournamehere 02-04-2009 12:46 AM
I might have said this before, but I'll say it again, any bread and butter 1911 is customizeable, the Colt manufactures just offer the nice bluing and a heavy price tag. If you want something to customize, get s Springfield. Less than half the price, so you can buy two and still have money for parts, and SA has their own custom shop, so you want a refinish, part installation, or a repair, you can send it to them. There's nothing I want more than a nickel plated Series 70 or pre 70 made by Colt, but I know that at the end of the day, if I plan on shooting or carrying, it's gonna be my tough as nails Springer, and not the collectors item. My buddy's dad packed his fathers Colt 1903 from WWII, which was is nearly 100 percent condition.......... was, until he dropped it and scratched the frame. Now it's both semi-useless and of no collectors worth. Duty first, pride second.

Gunmaster45 02-04-2009 01:51 AM
You have a good point. If Springers are cheaper I might have to settle. But I've always been a Colt enthusiest. Guess I'll have to deal. Those guns in Sin City looked pretty cool but I assume they are a bit more expensive in Mil-Spec and I heard a GI is $600. Did I hear wrong?

And leave it to me to bring up Colt and 1911s in an HK thread. :p

Yournamehere 02-04-2009 02:33 AM
I got mine for about 520, and it's the Parkerized version, but in the right place you can get 'em for around 500 or so, including a stainless model. Unless you like small ass sights, I recommend you get a Mil-Spec too. It's got some other nice features but the 3-dot sights sell the gun alone, trust me. You can always get the GI and install new ones later, but if you NEED good combat sights out of the box, Mil-Spec all the way. I'm gonna have to get some installed, I hear you can buy the Mil-Spec sight set for like 40 bucks from SA unfinished, and cold blue 'em. I recommend buying stainless too cause it looks sexy and holds up a hell of a lot better than any bluing/parking. I kinda wish I had gotten the Stainless version to begin with, but I'm still happy. I'm thinking about getting it hard chromed in the future for carry, some guy on the M1911 forum did that and got a set of black double diamond grips. Good looking gun.

MT2008 02-05-2009 03:17 AM
To get back on topic, I thought I would post a bit of a forum conversation we had over at HKPRO a while back. We were discussing the 416 and H&K's stupid decision to hold off on marketing the gun to civilians (this was 2006, and the MR223, now called the MR556, hadn't been introduced yet).

Anyway, while we were talking about why it is that H&K seems to be so averse to civilian sales of its long guns, someone said this:

Quote:
HK's mission as a company is to produce the most innovative and reliable firearms in the industry. This niche is expensive, and therefore, excludes the mass market. They leave the "quantity market" to others, who are quite content to cut corners to keep prices down. That is fine, too. Not everyone wants to spend a lot of money on a Cadillac, when a Ford is quite satisfactory to drive to work.

Shooters are typically a very conservative bunch. Most of them are left unmoved by new, revolutionary advances in firearm technology. When something out of the ordinary comes up, their walls of resistance go up....

.....HK is not interested in a dog-eats-dog market. While they undoubtedly would like to have a bigger market share (hopefully, the US plant project will finally work out), I don't think they will ever abandon their mission of quality and innovation, even with a different management, in the future - at least I hope not.
Sowgood9mm (one of the best posters on the board, IMO) pretty much tore this guy's bullshit argument apart with the following:

Quote:
I was going to stay out of this, but come on....

HK=Innovation and referring HK to Cadillac is just ridiculous in today's market terms.

If HK is stuck on making supreme "innovative" firearms for the "elite", then why did they "cut corners" and start making plastic guns ? Sure, we all can debate how they are "polymer" all day long, but in the end, they are plastic and have been reported to melt and crack. Is this moving "forward" for the sake of pushing the innovation/technology envelope, or to cut corners and cost ?

Ahhh, exactly.

Take away the fact that agencies have money invested in MP5 mags and accessories and tell me why they are not "upgrading" to the new Uber Spectacular, cutting edge and Innovative UMP ( which is still cheaper than MP5's ) ?

LEO's still prefer and buy the MP5 over the UMP even though it is more expensive, heavier and of "out dated" technology.

Can you explain why so many countries do not use the G36 and you only see them in movies ? Is this because they are more expensive than HK's older metal guns.... no. It's because HK "cut corners" and made a plastic gun so they could compete with the AR "types".... they failed in that respect.
Also, besides the super space age (plastic) polymer that they use, what make a G36 so special and ahead of it's time ? Nothing ! It uses Armalite / Stoner technology wrapped in plastic.

Tell me again why the G36 is no longer imported into the US ? Is the US M4 crazy ? No, the M4's are cheaper and will do everything the G36 will do.

Also, does anyone really wonder why the XM8 went down in flames... Besides the fact that HK had no domestic plant, it was just a G36 with a new body, and everyone here knows it. Eventually, the Government found out... and they weren't happy about it.

And my last point. If HK is serving the small, more expensive niche market to satisfy those who can truly respect and love a more advanced weapon, then why did they re-create the M16 ?

Why would they even think of doing such a thing when M16/4's can be had for such little money (everywhere). Who exactly was HK pitching this new ( read: old piston design) to anyway ?

Was the time spent (wasted) on re-inventing the wheel worth it to HK with the 416/417 ?

So if Sig, FN, Beretta, Glock are the "Fords" of the US, then I guess most of us had rather support them at this time. You cannot support a company that refuses to sell you items.

If HK is the Cadillac, then they should be like the Cadillac and go back to the 80's when they were once great. When they were repected more.

Also, you guys remember right after the AWB expired everyone was reaching out to HK to find out if we would ever see 9X guns again ? Remember what they posted on their US website... something to this effect: " We no longer have the equipment for those guns and we have Lost the Engineering Prowess to make them."

Yeah, that makes perfect sense....

So, you might want to reevalutate exactly what "HK's mission" is these days.

Everyone is here because they like HK toys... the only reason any bashing is going on is because the writing is all over the wall. If us simple folk can see their mistakes, then we can only hope that HK will eventually see them. HK would outsell most "new" guns in the US if they had a plant here and if prices were more competitive. There would be no compromise is quality... they would just be doing the most sensible thing for the company.

Gunmaster45 02-05-2009 08:02 PM
An excellent post. He really sums it up nicely. I might have to check out this forum when I have free time.

Spartan198 03-07-2009 07:58 AM
As someone who was the victim of an HK fanboy moderator on another forum which shall remain nameless (I was banned because a moderator didn't like my claiming preference for the LMT MRP over the HK416), I do think that HK is a bit overrated.
That's not to say they don't produce quality firearms, because they do...but so do Colt, LMT, LWRC, Bushmaster, Beretta, etc.. But I think a lot of their business practices are flawed (though I'm no businessman, so take that as you will), especially if the letter at the beginning of this thread was written by an HK employee.

Now, as far as video games go...

In Rainbow Six: Vegas, I always use the Barret REC7 or Mark 17 SCAR (heck, even the AK) over the XM8. And the only reason I use the Mark 23 is because of the lack of any other .45s.

In CoD4, I prefer an M4 or M16 (see above AK remark) over the G36C.

In MGS4, I always use the M4A1 (see above AK remark) over the XM8.

Seriously, the XM8 sucks. It melts in your hands and it offers nothing more than a bit cleaner of an OS than the M16/M4. The US military will never adopt it. Gamers need to get over it.

k9870 03-07-2009 04:20 PM
Hk hates you and thinks you suck. Every gun forum ive been on has had countless horror stories of hk customer service. They even shipped an sl-8 with no wrapping or padding. They could make hk94s again or semi auto anything in the u.s. factories but no, us lowly civilians dont deserve it. And hk416s are known to shoot 4moa, and not be nearly as accurate as m16 variants. The g36c is an awful weapon, it has an 8 inch barrel, 556 loses so much velocity there and range and hitting power is severely compromised. xm8s melted turing test trials.

MT2008 03-07-2009 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9870 (Post 943)
They could make hk94s again or semi auto anything in the u.s. factories but no, us lowly civilians dont deserve it.
Actually, I'm not so sure I'd want them to make the HK94 again. Or at least, not the bastardized HK94 that was so "neutered" that H&K couldn't even give it a proper magazine release like that on the MP5, or a lower receiver set up to accept registered auto sears easily. The current crop of MP5 clones made in the U.S. may not be quite the same production quality, but in every other respect, I like them better than the HK94.

It's not too surprising to me that HK doesn't want to produce the HK90 series guns again, considering that the roller-locking guns in general are now being phased out of production. It wouldn't make sense for them to produce the HK91 and HK93 anymore, for instance, now that the G3 and HK33 (their full-auto relatives) are no longer produced for military/LE.

k9870 03-07-2009 06:49 PM
my bad, i meant hk91. apparently when they were first out they were cheaper than remington 700s, now they fetch 4k

not a fan of the 94 myself, just a typo. A semiauto g36 (not sl8, actual g36) would be a good ar alternative

Gunmaster45 03-07-2009 10:43 PM
I've heard G36s are very accurate actually. I spoke with a guy who served in a foreign military who uses them and he claimed the gas operation gives it the accuracy of a bolt action, which he can personally vouche for. I don't necessarily believe him, but he sounded sincere. I can assume he ment a full sized G36 and not the small barrel G36C.

MT2008 03-07-2009 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 (Post 959)
I've heard G36s are very accurate actually. I spoke with a guy who served in a foreign military who uses them and he claimed the gas operation gives it the accuracy of a bolt action, which he can personally vouche for. I don't necessarily believe him, but he sounded sincere. I can assume he ment a full sized G36 and not the small barrel G36C.
Oh, I've heard great stuff about the G36's accuracy and reliability myself. The issue most people have with them is that they tend to overheat in the forearm (HK supposedly corrected this 10 years ago, but the complaints are still heard) and that the stock hinges tend to break. And of course, the melting can happen after very long periods of firing.

The thing is, though, the G36 is accurate because it basically uses the same operating system as the AR-18. There are quite a few guns built around the AR-18 tech that don't tend to overheat or break.

Spartan198 03-08-2009 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 963)
The thing is, though, the G36 is accurate because it basically uses the same operating system as the AR-18. There are quite a few guns built around the AR-18 tech that don't tend to overheat or break.
So in a way the G36 is just a refurnished AR18?

MT2008 03-08-2009 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 978)
So in a way the G36 is just a refurnished AR18?
To quote that dude whom I quoted: "[b]esides the super space age (plastic) polymer that they use, what make a G36 so special and ahead of it's time ? Nothing! It uses Armalite / Stoner technology wrapped in plastic."

To be fair, though, at least the G36 has an ambidextrous charging handle. The one thing I've never liked about the AR-18 is its (right side-only) charging handle.

jdun 03-16-2009 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 538)
Also, out of curiosity, has anyone noticed what Larry claims about G3's recoil? That it's worse than that of other .308 battle rifles? I've fired an M1A and a DSA FAL (both owned by an uncle) and never noticed a difference between them and the PTR-91 I fired.
G3 does kick like a mule from my own experience.

HK Mk.23 and Desert Eagle.
http://rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php...serialNumber=1
http://rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php...serialNumber=1

The Norwegian are having a lot of trouble with their HK416. Their Special Force are sticking with the Canadian made AR15, ie C7.

The G36 use a modified AR-18 action. It's still an AR-18 action. The most accurate auto loading rifle is the AR15 DI.


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