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MT2008 06-03-2020 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 44951)
Air Force Magazine reports the service wants its Skyborg drones to “autonomously avoid other aircraft, terrain, obstacles, and hazardous weather, and take off and land on its own”. That opens up a whole raft of other, less dangerous missions including refueling other planes, acting as a flying communications node, collecting intelligence on enemy forces, and even search and rescue.

OK, so I don't know if I'm missing something here, but absolutely every capability mentioned in this snippet from the article is something that other UAVs have been doing for years - there already UAVs that can serve as comms nodes or ISR assets, and aide CSAR. (One exception: Aerial refueling, and even that's something that the Navy's MQ-25 will be able to do - and which NASA already demonstrated with RQ-4 Global Hawks years ago.) Not sure if the fault here lies with the originating article in Air Force Magazine, or the Popular Mechanics author, but my immediate reaction here is, "Cool, but not really all that impressed," which I'm pretty sure isn't the effect that they were going for...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazryonh (Post 44953)
And I was just busy killing Skynet quite a few times while developing my page for Terminator: Resistance. However, I wouldn't be so quick to say that these new drones are revolutionary. Here are two articles outlining how using drones, let alone AI-piloted ones, doesn't actually save money and may be more ineffective than human pilots in capable planes--when your own ass is on the line, that survival instinct can really kick you into gear.

Both of those articles that you linked are from 2013. A lot has changed since then - particularly when it comes to machine learning and sensor capabilities. Though I don't disagree with the overall notion that it will be very difficult for UAVs to replace manned aircraft in all roles (not only for technical reasons, but also bureaucratic reasons).

Mazryonh 06-04-2020 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 44964)
A lot has changed since then - particularly when it comes to machine learning and sensor capabilities.

It doesn't change the fundamental issues though, such as the blurring of accountability when things go wrong, or the fact that such autonomous hardware may end up being more expensive to run and maintain than human pilots, or their susceptibility to spoofing and hacking. Furthermore, algorithms don't have any sense of context (and AI routines are algorithms), which comes from a lifetime of experience. I would hate to be in a "the Taliban don't wave" situation where an AI vehicle with autonomous decision making capability mistakes me or people around me for a legitimate target and opens fire despite anything we might do to the contrary. In real life, "the Taliban don't wave" incident happened in Afghanistan when a Canadian-led ANA squad was mistaken for a legitimate target by an American Apache helicopter pilot and the Canadian squad leader ordered everyone in the unit to stand up and wave at the helicopter, which prevented a friendly fire incident because "the Taliban don't wave."

(And before anyone tells me that "electronic IFF would solve the problem of AIs distinguishing friend from foe," that's not foolproof either due to jamming or technical problems.)

Skynet or not, I'm personally not a fan of AI autonomously making decisions to engage enemies in war myself.

MT2008 06-05-2020 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazryonh (Post 44968)
It doesn't change the fundamental issues though, such as the blurring of accountability when things go wrong, or the fact that such autonomous hardware may end up being more expensive to run and maintain than human pilots, or their susceptibility to spoofing and hacking. Furthermore, algorithms don't have any sense of context (and AI routines are algorithms), which comes from a lifetime of experience. I would hate to be in a "the Taliban don't wave" situation where an AI vehicle with autonomous decision making capability mistakes me or people around me for a legitimate target and opens fire despite anything we might do to the contrary. In real life, "the Taliban don't wave" incident happened in Afghanistan when a Canadian-led ANA squad was mistaken for a legitimate target by an American Apache helicopter pilot and the Canadian squad leader ordered everyone in the unit to stand up and wave at the helicopter, which prevented a friendly fire incident because "the Taliban don't wave."

(And before anyone tells me that "electronic IFF would solve the problem of AIs distinguishing friend from foe," that's not foolproof either due to jamming or technical problems.)

Skynet or not, I'm personally not a fan of AI autonomously making decisions to engage enemies in war myself.

*SIGH* Oh, Mazryonh, only you would write a giant rebuttal essay to somebody whose last post 90% agreed with you (and your articles). Please do get yourself tested for Asperger's Syndrome if you haven't already - and I know that's not the first time I've told you that.

BTW, I think the conventional wisdom nowadays is that Manned-Unmanned Teaming (vs. 100% Manned/100% Unmanned) is the way of the future; Real Clear Defense actually just had a good piece on that topic today.

Mazryonh 06-06-2020 08:27 PM

I was taking issue with what you said about machine learning and sensor capabilities. And you needn't be so quick to judge. We all have issues we like to talk about.

Anyway, would we be even having this conversation about drones in combat if there wasn't a manpower shortage in the US Armed Forces? Do you have a link to the specific article you were referring to?

MT2008 06-08-2020 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazryonh (Post 44972)
I was taking issue with what you said about machine learning and sensor capabilities. And you needn't be so quick to judge. We all have issues we like to talk about.

OK, but as I said, I didn't fundamentally disagree with the basic premise that it is undesirable for a machine to determine whether or not to pull the trigger (and really, it's moot given policy - which I cited). I just pointed out that 2013 was an eternity ago for those fields; even though classifier error (which you refer to) is still a problem - especially for image recognition algorithms - current multi-sensor fusion techniques are mitigating some of those shortcomings. (But...before you write another 10-page rebuttal, I will add a disclaimer: Not completely, which is why most algorithms cannot recognize objects and patterns the way that human operators can.)

I just do hope you understand that IRL, if you grandstand people the way that you just did with me, you will alienate them. Might want to temper it a bit; sometimes, showing off how much you know can backfire in certain social situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazryonh (Post 44972)
Anyway, would we be even having this conversation about drones in combat if there wasn't a manpower shortage in the US Armed Forces? Do you have a link to the specific article you were referring to?

https://www.realcleardefense.com/art...ng_115283.html

(Now that I see the date in my browser, I was wrong when I said the article just came out - it came out last month, but it only just showed up in my Facebook feed on Friday.)

One other point: I don't disagree with your article's premise that the cost savings of UAVs compared to manned aircraft have often proven dubious (cost overruns are probably one of the reasons that the U.S. Navy is pausing MQ-4C Triton production). However, IMHO, that says as much about the need for acquisition reform as it does inherent shortcomings of UAVs.

Spartan198 06-13-2020 10:26 AM

https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/the-re...o-opting-name/

Don't you just love it when an attempt to pander for a pat on the back results in a kick in the balls? :D

Jcordell 06-15-2020 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 44989)
https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/the-re...o-opting-name/

Don't you just love it when an attempt to pander for a pat on the back results in a kick in the balls? :D

Oops. It's 2020 and people (in this case the legal rep for the band) still fail to spend five minutes on Google.

Spartan198 06-26-2020 07:41 PM

Jesus, now it's becoming racist just to utter the term "Civil War." What next, rename south on the compass to something else? :rolleyes:

Spartan198 07-06-2020 07:16 AM

Do any of you happen to know the make of these gloves?

https://www.glockstore.com/assets/im...0&resizew=1000

Mazryonh 07-06-2020 11:50 AM

Ennio Morricone, a famous film composer and frequently heard in spaghetti westerns, has passed away at 91. RIP, and thank you for all the beauty you gave the world.


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