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-   -   Daniel Defense M4 patrol rifle (http://forum.imfdb.org/showthread.php?t=2562)

Jcordell 05-21-2018 02:26 AM

Daniel Defense M4 patrol rifle
 
Last year my agency decided it was time that we all carried a patrol rifle (as in all officers both uniformed and detectives). The Lieutenant in charge of the firearms program went to Daniel Defense and got the estimate for seventy M4 rifles along with the iron sights, aimpoint and weapons lights. They then had another lower estimate with just the iron sights and the light and finally just the iron sights. The Chief then went in front of the city council and requested $235,000 from the city council. That was the sums required for the top estimate. Admin was prepared to then ask for the lower sums. Everybody figured the council would freak. Instead it passed without a single squawk. So I now carry a patrol rifle with a three point sling, three magazines and a carrying case. Nice rifle. Too rich for my personal finances, but it's kind of neat to have a weapon from the highest bidder.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...pswcvt0p1o.jpg
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...psyegjrjzd.jpg

Spartan198 05-21-2018 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcordell (Post 44330)
Too rich for my personal finances, but it's kind of neat to have a weapon from the highest bidder.

Sounds more like the only bidder. At least the different package options your LT looked into added additional capability with the addition of different accessories, justifying the added cost. Looking at just the rifles, if the decision was between the $1,700 DDM4V11 pictured and, say, a $3,000 MR556A1 that both met the same accuracy and reliability standards, wouldn't it be common sense to go with the cheaper DD especially if buying in bulk as police departments and militaries often do? This is something I've never understood about the whole "lowest bidder" disdain.

Jcordell 05-21-2018 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 44331)
Sounds more like the only bidder. At least the different package options your LT looked into added additional capability with the addition of different accessories, justifying the added cost. Looking at just the rifles, if the decision was between the $1,700 DDM4V11 pictured and, say, a $3,000 MR556A1 that both met the same accuracy and reliability standards, wouldn't it be common sense to go with the cheaper DD especially if buying in bulk as police departments and militaries often do? This is something I've never understood about the whole "lowest bidder" disdain. (I was making a joke there. I suppose it's funnier to those who are vets) - Jcordell

Well it was a nice surprise that we got the funding approved and could purchase the "wish list". My department is a longtime practitioner of "do more with less". Less manpower, less pay, etc. So when something like this happens it's a nice change of pace and totally unexpected.

Evil Tim 05-21-2018 04:55 PM

Ew, Keymod :P

Excalibur 05-21-2018 09:46 PM

I didn't know DD makes their rails in Keymod.

Well it's not a deal breaker. Since you aren't putting lasers on the rail that may or may not lose zero according to testings

Jcordell 05-22-2018 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excalibur (Post 44334)
I didn't know DD makes their rails in Keymod.

Well it's not a deal breaker. Since you aren't putting lasers on the rail that may or may not lose zero according to testings

So far we're doing okay, but in a few years who knows.

Excalibur 05-22-2018 04:59 AM

I hope you practice with it often

commando552 05-22-2018 08:28 AM

I've only ever used side or bottom mounted lights on a rifle, how do top mounted ones like this work out? I feel like the obstruction to the sight picture would annoy me.

Jcordell 05-22-2018 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando552 (Post 44337)
I've only ever used side or bottom mounted lights on a rifle, how do top mounted ones like this work out? I feel like the obstruction to the sight picture would annoy me.

It's not that bad. The primary sighting apparatus is the Aimpoint and the light doesn't interfere with that. I've taken the rifle out a couple of times when on duty and I find the Aimpoint is very handy. I can keep both eyes open and maintain some peripheral vision. That red dot makes for quick acquisition. The light is easy to operate with my right thumb and easy to reach. I'm a lefty by the way.

It's interesting talking to younger shooters about the AR-15 platform. I fired my first AR-15 in 1982 when I was fourteen years old. Strictly Vietnam Era milspec (approved for civilian use). I joined the Army in 1986 and my M-16A1 that I carried in basic training was manufactured in the late sixties/early seventies by Hydra-matic. A General Motors company. Talk about a basic rifle. I look back on that old rifle and smile. Here is a link to an article about the Hydra-matic M16's. The company made 469,217 M16A1s. Many people don't know this. I was envious off all the other privates in my platoon with their Colt made M16A1s, but I never had any trouble with my old veteran rifle. Many of the newer Colt rifles broke. Especially parts in the lower receiver. My old warhorse just kept going.

https://www.military.com/veteran-job...g-of-m-16.html

We had none of the extras that are just taken for granted in 2018. I remember the modular concept started in the 90's and those of us assigned to the 10th Mountain Division in 1998 received some of the first M4 carbines but with none of the extra accoutrements. Only the division's long range surveillance detachment had the flashlights and the forward pistol grips. The rest of us just had the basic issue. The modular concept really took off after 9/11 and the start of the fighting in the Middle East. That's typical though. Wars loosen the purse strings and all the goodies start to flow to the average soldiers.

All the extras are nice and I'm a big fan of the light mounted onto my Glock 19. It's just interesting reading all the responses. When I was twenty years old (1988) the idea of a laser sight mounted onto an At-15 was something that only rich people and Hollywood did. Maybe the very top level SF operators.

Times change.

Excalibur 05-23-2018 04:50 AM

It's the same thing with cable, cellphones, etc. As technology becomes smaller and more affordable, more people can get access to them.


I started putting the light on my rifle at the 12 o clock after watching Larry Vickers do it. It works well because your light is now oriented to where your sight picture is. Where you aim the sight at is where your light is going to be. Unless you have really low sights, the light won't obscure your sight picture. This also saves from mounting switches vs having a light on the side and needing a switch to activate it with your other hand. With the light on top, you can switch shoulders and still turn on the light

Jcordell 05-23-2018 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excalibur (Post 44339)
It's the same thing with cable, cellphones, etc. As technology becomes smaller and more affordable, more people can get access to them.


I started putting my light on my rifle on the 12 o clock after watching Larry Vickers do it. It works well because your light is now oriented to where your right picture is. Where you aim the sight at is where your light is going to be. Unless you have really low sights, the light won't obscure your sight picture. This also saves from mounting switches vs having a light on the side and needing a switch to activate it with your other hand. With the light on top, you can switch shoulders and still turn on the light

That sounds right.

MT2008 06-03-2018 11:22 PM

JC,

Nice rifle; glad you were able to get one. Interesting observation RE light placement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excalibur (Post 44334)
I didn't know DD makes their rails in Keymod.

Don’t pretty much all AR makers nowadays offer both Keynod and MLOK forearms (not to mention M1913 quad rails) as options? I’ve been debating what new upper I’m going to buy, and I’m kinda overwhelmed by options. (Though I’ll probably go with an MLOK forearm of some kind.)

S&Wshooter 06-08-2018 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcordell (Post 44338)
All the extras are nice and I'm a big fan of the light mounted onto my Glock 19. It's just interesting reading all the responses. When I was twenty years old (1988) the idea of a laser sight mounted onto an At-15 was something that only rich people and Hollywood did. Maybe the very top level SF operators.

Times change.

https://i.gyazo.com/fb65e4835a07e93d...4df2f79a4b.png

The new stuff is way better, but it sure doesn't look as cool

commando552 06-08-2018 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 44344)
JC,

Nice rifle; glad you were able to get one. Interesting observation RE light placement.



Donít pretty much all AR makers nowadays offer both Keynod and MLOK forearms (not to mention M1913 quad rails) as options? Iíve been debating what new upper Iím going to buy, and Iím kinda overwhelmed by options. (Though Iíll probably go with an MLOK forearm of some kind.)

I would personally steer clear of KeyMod. I could point to that study that NSWC Crane did but instead I'll just point to the fact that personally I kept getting my gloves caught in KeyMod slots. I had less of a problem with bare hands, but with gloves the material had just enough give that it would poke up into the wide part of the slot and then when I slid my hand along it would jam in the narrow part in a way that would be impossible with MLOK.

I have also seen someone totally wreck a KeyMod rail by installing something incorrectly with the recoil lug just up on the surface of the handguard rather than properly in the slot. This is due to how KeyMod works with you having to hook in the bolt heads and slide the accessory forwards before tightening, and if you do not slide it forward enough (or do not keep it held forward whilst tightening which I believe was the case here) the recoil lug could be out of the slot and cause damage. This having to hook in and slide forward thing is not a concern with MLOK, but you can still fuck that up in a different way. In my experience I have found the KeyMod slightly trickier (or at least less intuitive) to install than MLOK, but with MLOK you do need to be more aware of the thickness of the handguard so it is a six of one, half a dozen of the other kind of thing in that regard.

MLOK also has the pro that it is far easier to have accessories and rails that can mount in either direction.

Jcordell 06-08-2018 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter (Post 44358)
https://i.gyazo.com/fb65e4835a07e93d...4df2f79a4b.png

The new stuff is way better, but it sure doesn't look as cool

:cool:That's what I'm talking about. I actually did tape the reload magazine onto the mag back in the late eighties when doing "force on force" tactical training. LOL.

Jcordell 06-08-2018 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando552 (Post 44360)
I would personally steer clear of KeyMod. I could point to that study that NSWC Crane did but instead I'll just point to the fact that personally I kept getting my gloves caught in KeyMod slots. I had less of a problem with bare hands, but with gloves the material had just enough give that it would poke up into the wide part of the slot and then when I slid my hand along it would jam in the narrow part in a way that would be impossible with MLOK.

I have also seen someone totally wreck a KeyMod rail by installing something incorrectly with the recoil lug just up on the surface of the handguard rather than properly in the slot. This is due to how KeyMod works with you having to hook in the bolt heads and slide the accessory forwards before tightening, and if you do not slide it forward enough (or do not keep it held forward whilst tightening which I believe was the case here) the recoil lug could be out of the slot and cause damage. This having to hook in and slide forward thing is not a concern with MLOK, but you can still fuck that up in a different way. In my experience I have found the KeyMod slightly trickier (or at least less intuitive) to install than MLOK, but with MLOK you do need to be more aware of the thickness of the handguard so it is a six of one, half a dozen of the other kind of thing in that regard.

MLOK also has the pro that it is far easier to have accessories and rails that can mount in either direction.

You make some good points, but the rifles are issued to us so we use what we get. The eternal dilemma of government employees.

commando552 06-08-2018 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcordell (Post 44363)
You make some good points, but the rifles are issued to us so we use what we get. The eternal dilemma of government employees.

I totally get that, I recently switched to being issued an MCX with a KeyMod handguard which is how I know I personally don't really like it (the whole weapon is miles ahead of the G36C I previously used though). Granted, I only have a passing familiarity with MLOK so if i used something with that I might hate it even more, but on a surface level it seems like the better choice to me. The way the mounting actually works is kind of a non-issue as we are officially forbade from ever fiddling with the accessories personally, but the texture of the slots does still annoy me a bit.

A couple of weeks ago I did play around with one of the new L85A3s which use the HKey system which (according to an HK rep so I imagine total bollocks) is apparently stronger than either option. I can sort of believe this as it mounts onto a curved handguard rather than a flat surface which provides an additional way of indexing the accessory repeatably as well as giving it more support from "twisting" forces. HKey has the rather big downside though that there are basically zero accessories made for it, all that the British military are using are a sling loop and a short rail section for mounting an LLM.

Spartan198 06-09-2018 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcordell (Post 44363)
You make some good points, but the rifles are issued to us so we use what we get. The eternal dilemma of government employees.

Tell them you demand the same leeway as tier one operators.


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