10mm Auto: (Un)fairly ignored?
 

Hi,

I've heard a lot about this "cartridge that was too hot for the FBI," and from what I can gather the 10x25mm cartridge was supposed to definitively settle the "9x19mm or .45 ACP?" question for pistols and SMGs.

On paper it seems quite nice. In short, it has better magazine capacity than the .45 ACP, with more velocity, range, and kinetic energy in most loadings than both the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP cartridges. I hear that in longer-barrelled firearms, like the MP5/10 or the rare custom-made pistol-caliber carbine, the effective range is increased to 270 metres--not bad for a pistol cartridge.

The chief complaints I've seen were that it had too much recoil for most shooters (which brought about the .40 S&W), the rarity and higher cost of the ammunition, and the lack of guns chambered for it. While I'll certainly admit that some shooters value their comfort when firing their weapons, I still think enough practice for the right professional shooters could tame the cartridge's recoil and make use of its power more effectively (furthermore, in a life-or-death situation, you don't care about whether your ammunition's "comfortable" to shoot--just about whether it can reliably and accurately land on target). The lack of firearms and the expense of the ammunition is really a commercial question, not a ballistic one, but a few manufacturers have stepped up to the plate for this unsung cartridge. Still, it seems that on this wiki guns like the Glock 20, the Colt Delta Elite, or the Star Megastar for 10x25mm get next to no love.

I would certainly like to see more 10x25mm firearms in games, because I think it'd be nice to see a pistol or SMG-class weapon with surprisingly high stopping power and range that is NOT a Desert Eagle or PDW. I can't help but wonder just how much potential is going to waste with this cartridge class--could this have been the cartridge the OHWS program could have used instead for better range and stopping power? Could the MP5/10 be that much more useful over its less-powerful cousins? Could you turn this into a PDW round, like how the Russians turned the 9x19mm cartridge into a PDW round with their 7N31 loading?

I'd like to hear some relevant info about all this. It certainly sounds like a cartridge type that could definitely be useful for SWAT-type police teams or the like.

EDIT: Those who want to see a nice discussion forum for this underappreciated cartridge, including information on which guns use it and classifieds with ads on the right handguns and accessories to buy them, can go here:

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/10m...rums-f187.html

EDIT: Another advocacy article for this cartridge can be found here. I'd like to know how much of it is believable:

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

I've been obsessed with 10mm since Rainbow Six Rogue Spear had MP5's in 10mm. :D
I like the sound of the round too, but mostly just because it's unique.
Maybe the problem is that the round tries to fill a hole that doesn't exist, like the .45 GAP(as mentioned on the 9v45 thread).

Well, the problem is the federal girly men couldnt take recoil so they made a 10mm "fbi load" with reduced recoil. It was a basically a long cased 40, somebody was like "hey couldnt we make the cartridge shorter? and 40 s&w was made, became wildly popular, and 10mm auto was almost completely ignored, but recently made some comebacks. Many 1911s, the glock 20/29, and even the bren 10s coming back

Well, there are two other issued with the 10mm. It's a long cartidge, which means only large-frame guns can be chambered in it - it's like a .45 ACP vs 9mm Glock, the .45 model is beefier. The .40 can be chambered in a standard size 9mm frame, which in turn make the pistol lighter (this is not a meaningless factor when it's carried all day) and easier for most shooters to handle.

The other, of course, is that yes you can be trained to use a heavier-recoiling gun, but the lighter one will take less training, and therefore less time and money. Don't forget there's no such thing as a professional pistol shooter - cops / soldier / federal agents have better things spend their training time and budget on than handgun shooting.

The best use for 10mm ive heard is a trail gun. Some people dont shoot revolvers well, and a 10mm delivers near .357 power in an auto.

"Near .357 Magnum power"? I've heard that under maximally loaded conditions the 10mm Auto can actually exceed that venerable cartridge's capabilities. :D Sounds like the sort of stuff you would definitely pack into a law enforcement SMG for maximum range and cover penetration, but I don't see more reports of LE agencies or SWAT-type organizations using it. I'd definitely want something like this for officers on high-risk assignments so they can take down the perps more quickly and with less overall danger to the LEOs.

And yes, at least one special operations unit uses a 10x25mm handgun (the Glock 20) as a "trail weapon," since they're a dogsled patrol unit from Denmark that patrols Greenland. They need something like that to confront polar bears, since animals like them simply laugh off 9x19mm rounds. You can read about them here--just search for "Sirius":

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Denmark/

I'd still like to know whether 10x25mm SMGs would be a more economical and effective choice for a law enforcement unit to use than compact assault rifles/PDWs, and if the 10x25mm round can actually be upgraded to PDW-levels of penetration.

Again, it's a matter of economics. Police departments buy firearms and ammunition en masse most of the time and if they don't have a handgun chambered in 10mm, why would they get a submachinegun or carbine chambered for that round? They'd rather have a gun that is either a full sized rifle (AR-15 of some sort), a 12 gauge shotgun, or if they have to have a pistol caliber carbine, a 9 or .40 to match their sidearm so if things get heated, they can change the bullets out. This is why the Cx4 is becoming so popular as a lot of PDs carry Beretta 92 or 96 pistols and they can just buy the same pistol mags for their carbine.

Even in cases where individual officers have to by their own weapons, they still won't opt for a 10mm carbine or submachineguns because the ammunition is highly priced and not very common, and they have to pay out of pocket for that.

I seriously doubt that 10mm could be considered a PDW cartridge no matter how much engineering is done. Armor piercing rounds could be made but that will just raise the cost of ammunition, and despite the amount of damage it can do or it's range, it still pales in comparison to an actual rifle. That being said, if a cop has to choose between an MP5 that has been engineered away from it's original design to take a more powerful handgun cartridge which may or may not have good penetrative powers against soft targets or body armor, and an AR-15 rifle in a more economical, 5.56 caliber round which can penetrate body armor without question (with AP rounds) with a design that was built to take the cartirdge, and is incredibly common and easy to learn to operate. Oh yeah, it's got far more range and less recoil too.

10mm is, has been, and will remain a low key, cool guy cartridge that only real hardcore gun enthusiasts know about or truly admire, it's not meant for large scale law enforcement or military purposes. If it was, it wouldn't have flopped when it was introduced. That's not to say it isn't a good round, though.

Really? because I have only seen one police officer, out of all the different cops in all the different states I have been to, carry a model 92

People thought the m92 was cool since its the military pistol, then they noticed its quite a bit of hardware for a small caliber. Its a chunky brick, and would be a bitch to carry off duty.

Personally, the tang puts a pressure point against the knucle on my thumb and the safety is in a poor spot (not that id use it on a da/sa, but some might) and its a bit thick, manageable but not confortable. An overrate pistol, IMHO. Now if i was in LA and was given the choice of m92fs or GLock 22 (the most ovverrated service pistol ever) id take the beretta, but then again i could always find a 4506.

The 4506 is one heavy motherfucker. If I was LAPD, I'd carry a Beretta 8045 or a Kimber 1911 (if they'd let me), because the 4506 is very wide and very heavy. It's fun to shoot though.