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-   -   SIG wins NGSW (http://forum.imfdb.org/showthread.php?t=2669)

Spartan198 02-07-2022 11:24 PM

SIG wins NGSW
 
Treat this as unofficial if you will because it hasn't yet made the regular news, but my sources in the know are telling me that the MCX Spear and MG 6.8 have been chosen as the winners of the NGSW program.

S&Wshooter 02-10-2022 02:02 AM

I think barring the rifle catastrophically failing in testing, SIG was going to get it no matter what

Spartan198 02-10-2022 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter (Post 45417)
I think barring the rifle catastrophically failing in testing, SIG was going to get it no matter what

The MCX platform is proven at this point, having been adopted in various forms by JSOC and USSOCOM, UKSF, and Ukraine's SBU Alpha Group, among others. If there ends up being a problem, I can't see it being with the rifle.

Of course, the DoD could very well just end up randomly canning the program altogether because DoD reasons. We have seen it before in the cases of the Joint Combat Pistol/Combat Pistol, Individual Carbine, and Interim Combat Service Rifle programs just in the last couple decades.

Spartan198 04-20-2022 09:06 AM

And it's now been officially announced.

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-...ource=facebook

End of an era.

MT2008 04-25-2022 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45433)
And it's now been officially announced.

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-...ource=facebook

End of an era.

I heard, but I'm still of a "I'll believe it when I see it" mentality right now. For as long as I've been a gun geek (25+ years), I've seen too many attempts to replace the basic DI AR which came and went.

Spartan198 04-26-2022 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 45435)
I heard, but I'm still of a "I'll believe it when I see it" mentality right now. For as long as I've been a gun geek (25+ years), I've seen too many attempts to replace the basic DI AR which came and went.

Yeah, true, but this is the first time a new standard cartridge has been seriously considered and I've always been of the mind that changing platforms without ditching 5.56 was pointless because one 5.56 rifle is really no better than another of comparable barrel length. Every so-called "M4 killer" (XM8, SCAR-L, ACR, etc) has been more or less a dud in that regard, while the HK416 only managed an in-road when it did because CAG needed a 10" gun that could run reliably with a suppressor and the CQBR hadn't quite matured enough to do so at the time.

That said, the XM5 and XM250 are still technically in the experimental stage, so there's still the distinct possibility that (A) the 6.8mm round doesn't perform as well as hoped against modern body armor or (B) the DoD just up and cancels it out of the blue because reasons. Plus, you probably recall the XM25 grenade launcher that was popular among troops and performing well when a single faulty cartridge detonated inside one and killed the whole program. As I said previously, though, the MCX is a proven system now despite early teething problems (not unlike the M16/M4) and I don't see there being any catastrophic issues with the rifle itself.

Edit: On the more philosophical side of things, though, I do question that if body armor is that much of a concern, why do prospective near-peer enemies like Russia and China not seem to share it? They seem to be perfectly happy soldiering on with their existing service calibers rather than beating the "bigger stick" drum that NGSW and 6.8x51mm ultimately is. On TFB, for example, there isn't a single comment defending the new round. Everyone there seems to think we should stick with 5.56 and keep upgrading the M4 platform.

MT2008 05-06-2022 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45436)
Yeah, true, but this is the first time a new standard cartridge has been seriously considered and I've always been of the mind that changing platforms without ditching 5.56 was pointless because one 5.56 rifle is really no better than another of comparable barrel length. Every so-called "M4 killer" (XM8, SCAR-L, ACR, etc) has been more or less a dud in that regard, while the HK416 only managed an in-road when it did because CAG needed a 10" gun that could run reliably with a suppressor and the CQBR hadn't quite matured enough to do so at the time.

This is a legitimate point; certainly, changing cartridges is a better reason to switch platforms than simply getting a newer platform for the sake of the new. That being said, I don't even think changing cartridges is enough of a reason to switch platforms. So long as assault rifles with intermediate-power cartridges are the standard-issue infantry weapons in all modern militaries, it makes little difference what caliber or platform is issued from a bigger strategic picture. Whenever something like caseless ammo becomes available and the M41A Pulse Rifle becomes a reality, then maybe there will be a reason to ditch the AR*. I also think it's telling that every time a new platform or cartridge has become available in the past 20-25 years, SOCOM has (mostly) stood by the good old M4.

*On that note, it's kinda weird to say this, given that the MCX itself is still heavily rooted in the AR platform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45436)
That said, the XM5 and XM250 are still technically in the experimental stage, so there's still the distinct possibility that (A) the 6.8mm round doesn't perform as well as hoped against modern body armor or (B) the DoD just up and cancels it out of the blue because reasons.

Agreed, and I do think that's going to make the biggest difference between whether the NGSW becomes standardized, or goes the way of the SCAR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45436)
Plus, you probably recall the XM25 grenade launcher that was popular among troops and performing well when a single faulty cartridge detonated inside one and killed the whole program.

I think that in retrospect, the XM25 was more a victim of sequestration-era budget cuts, combined with the catastrophic malfunction, which enabled the bean-counters who write the NDAA to conveniently write it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45436)
Edit: On the more philosophical side of things, though, I do question that if body armor is that much of a concern, why do prospective near-peer enemies like Russia and China not seem to share it? They seem to be perfectly happy soldiering on with their existing service calibers rather than beating the "bigger stick" drum that NGSW and 6.8x51mm ultimately is. On TFB, for example, there isn't a single comment defending the new round. Everyone there seems to think we should stick with 5.56 and keep upgrading the M4 platform.

In the case of the Russians, I think it's because they've been more concerned lately about slapping down their neighbors than fighting near-peer adversaries, and most of their neighbors aren't fielding the latest body armor. With that being said, I am sure that their experiences in Ukraine (where the U.S. has shipped quite a bit of high-end vests and helmets) will change their attitude in the future.

Perhaps we're just a bit more forward-thinking than our adversaries. Not sure. I certainly wouldn't be surprised, though, if what you've said above proves to be yet another excuse that Congress uses to axe the entire NGSW program.

Ultimate94ninja 05-27-2022 08:16 PM

And now LoneStar Future Weapons are protesting this decision.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ngsw-decision/

Spartan198 06-03-2022 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate94ninja (Post 45451)
And now LoneStar Future Weapons are protesting this decision.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ngsw-decision/

I'm expecting it to be unceremoniously slapped down. I personally don't believe LoneStar's entry was ever seriously considered because the US military has never embraced bullpups and probably never will.

funkychinaman 06-05-2022 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45454)
I'm expecting it to be unceremoniously slapped down. I personally don't believe LoneStar's entry was ever seriously considered because the US military has never embraced bullpups and probably never will.

I don't doubt that, but if they didn't want bullpups, they should've specified, no bullpups. They're punishing LoneStar for something that wasn't specified.

Spartan198 06-06-2022 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkychinaman (Post 45455)
I don't doubt that, but if they didn't want bullpups, they should've specified, no bullpups. They're punishing LoneStar for something that wasn't specified.

The fact that LoneStar made it to the finals is generous enough, IMO.

MT2008 07-08-2022 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45458)
The fact that LoneStar made it to the finals is generous enough, IMO.

Doesn't matter; protesting is the norm when a major manufacturer loses out on a major DoD contract. When Glock's 19X wasn't selected by the military, the fact that they still sold thousands of those guns to civilian customers - based entirely on the gun's rep as an MHS finalist - wasn't enough of a consolation prize for them not to protest. (Side note: The Glock 19X has also arguably proven to be a more influential handgun design than the P320, in more ways than one.)

In GD/LoneStar's case, even if/when they come out with a civilian version of the RM-277R, they won't even get the same consolation prize as Glock. The handgun market in the U.S. (and around the world) is much larger than the semi-auto rifle market, and handguns are also more affordable, so they're easier to market and sell to consumers. More than likely, the RM-277R will see limited production for civilian sales, won't sell at all, and will simply fade away.

Spartan198 07-11-2022 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MT2008 (Post 45466)
Doesn't matter; protesting is the norm when a major manufacturer loses out on a major DoD contract. When Glock's 19X wasn't selected by the military, the fact that they still sold thousands of those guns to civilian customers - based entirely on the gun's rep as an MHS finalist - wasn't enough of a consolation prize for them not to protest. (Side note: The Glock 19X has also arguably proven to be a more influential handgun design than the P320, in more ways than one.)

I think Glock already being one of the most popular handguns in the world played some part in it, too. As you probably know, some 70% of LEOs in the US use Glocks.

Quote:

In GD/LoneStar's case, even if/when they come out with a civilian version of the RM-277R, they won't even get the same consolation prize as Glock. The handgun market in the U.S. (and around the world) is much larger than the semi-auto rifle market, and handguns are also more affordable, so they're easier to market and sell to consumers. More than likely, the RM-277R will see limited production for civilian sales, won't sell at all, and will simply fade away.
It still falls back to the fact that bullpups haven't seen widespread acceptance in the US, military or otherwise. But we've seen manufacturers sink lots of money into potential military tenders only to get little to nothing back in the past (HK with the G11 being probably the most egregious example in the case of small arms) and it will probably happen again at some point.

MT2008 07-11-2022 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45468)
I think Glock already being one of the most popular handguns in the world played some part in it, too. As you probably know, some 70% of LEOs in the US use Glocks.

Oh, absolutely - but Glock has had its hits and misses over the years. The primary reason the 19X is still selling, and still in production, is due to its MHS rep. Otherwise, Glock should have phased it out by now to concentrate on production of the G45.

My point, though, is that the consolation prize of the 19X's popularity on the civilian market still doesn't mean Glock didn't feel obligated to protest its MHS loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan198 (Post 45468)
It still falls back to the fact that bullpups haven't seen widespread acceptance in the US, military or otherwise. But we've seen manufacturers sink lots of money into potential military tenders only to get little to nothing back in the past (HK with the G11 being probably the most egregious example in the case of small arms) and it will probably happen again at some point.

Yes, this is true also, though I should point out that there is still a market for bullpup designs in the U.S., which is why firearms manufacturers continue to bring them to market. But yes, American civilians and LE agencies are so addicted to AR-15-pattern rifles that bullpups will always be a curiosity and a novelty for collectors, rather than a serious contender for most folks' go-to rifles.

I also do think that in GD/LoneStar's case, they were always going to take a bigger loss than Glock took on the 19X (which really wasn't much of a loss) by virtue of the fact that the market for expensive military-style semi-auto rifles is far smaller than the market for handguns.


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