Some questions about further updates
 

Hello everybody,

I would like to discuss a few changes and updates which I would like to do to the IMFDB and ask if this is ok.

1) I would like to create the following Sub categories: anti tank guns (like 5cm Pak 38 etc), anti aircraft guns (like 2cm Flak 38), combat vehicles (like M1 Abrams, M8 Grayhound etc). Is it ok?

2) I would like to add pages for tanks/amored fighting vehicles which appear in movies (like M4 Sherman which lists all used variants like M4A2, M4A1, M4A3E8). Most movie pages where tanks are used already have them listed, I would like to create a page for each vehicle in the same format as guns have their own pages.

3) After the two steps above I would go over a lot of movies and add the missing armored fighing vehicles (I have quite a bit of DVDs and Blurays) so this would be rather easy for me.



Are those things ok? I know this sounds like a lot of work but I need something to do in the next few months.

Definitely no on the combat vehicles. That's not why we're here. You may continue to point them out as trivia, and of course their weapons should be documented, but they cannot have their own pages.

Ok understood, just out of curiousity, the Rules, Standards and Principles says the following:

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Rules,_Sta...EARMS_Database

"Though we do list a variety of weapons in the individual movie/TV/anime/Videogame pages, that's just for the sake of being 100% complete for that page. With the exception of grenades (which we do allow), the only weapons which merit an individual page in the GUNS Category are any individual or crew served weapon that fires in a DIRECT FIRE role."

Tanks and such are Crew served weapons that fire in direct fire role.....

But sure you are the admin, I just find it a bit irritating?

It is just my personal passion to identify those military combat vehicles in movies. I can fully understand that this site has its Standards etc, but would it be possible to bend the Standards a bit to allow me to add those military vehicles?

May I proceed with 1) I proposed above for AT and AA guns?

I'm not making this decision on my own, this was discussed several times, and the decision was no. Please see here for more.

How many AT and AA guns do we have?

After a quick search through IMFDB I found the following:

AT Guns:

45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K)
5 cm Pak 38
7.5 cm Pak 40
76mm ZiS-3
57mm ZiS-2
7.5 cm Pak 97/38
8,8cm Pak 43/41
Type 1 47mm AT gun
Ordnance QF 6 Pounder Gun
2,8cm schwere Panzerbüchse 41
Type 98 AT

AA Guns:

2 cm Flak 38
2 cm Flak 38 "Flakvierling"
8,8cm Flak 18
8,8cm Flak 36
8,8cm Flak 37
M1940 (72-K) Soviet 25mm Anti Aircraft Gun
M1939 (52-K) Soviet 85mm Anti Aircraft Gun
37-mm M1939 (61-K)
37-mm V-11 twin
Bofors 40mm
Oerlikon 20mm Cannon
20mm Type 98 Anti Aircraft Cannon
Enfield 13-pdr 9-cwt Mk I, 3
M51 Quad
Type 98 AA

There is definately more and those pages do need some clean up and/or additions.

Naturally I will go over all pages and add what is missing/needs updates.

There are also more guns in movies, I have quite a bit of Blurays and can add them.

No they aren't, they are vehicle which have weapons mounted to them. If you have a Land Rover with an M2HB on the back the Land rover isn't a weapon is it? As FCM stated this has been discussed before and quite simply it is outside of the scope of what we do. If we started doing that then we would logically have to start making pages for and identifying every plane, helicopter and vehicle with a weapon mounted on it which is not what the Internet Movie Firearm Database is about. If you want a place to do that there are other sites which cover this such as the Internet Movie Plane Database and the Internet Movie Car Database.

OK understood, then I will go for the AA and AT guns.

Started with the clean up and adding missing guns.

Could somebody please help me to change the names of the following pages to standardise them? (I cannot change them, can I?) Currently there are several different formats used for the designations. I will then update all the movie pages with the correct names and links etc. and after that add the missing pages so each gun has ist own page in the same design.

(Those are the official designations)

OLD NAMES --> NEW NAMES

45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K) --> 45-mm anti-tank gun model 1937 (53-K)

37-mm M1939 (61-K) --> 37-mm automatic air defense gun model 1939 (61-K)
5 cm Pak 38 --> 5 cm Panzerabwehrkanone 38 (5 cm Pak 38)

7.5 cm Pak 40 --> 7,5 cm Panzerjägerkanone 40 (7,5 cm Pak 40)

FlaK 38 --> 2 cm Flugabwehrkanone 38 (2 cm Flak 38)

I agree we should standardize the formatting with the names, but the full names seems a bit much. I have no problem with PaK or FlaK. If you want to create redirects with the full names, that's fine.

As this is an English language site I think we should use a period for decimalisation even if the original language doesn't. Also, the abbreviated form of the page name is sufficient particularly as it is something that people need to be able to type in relatively easily. For example my opinion is that the page for the Pak 40 should simply be titled "7.5 cm Pak 40", but the description shows the full name, just like it currently does. Lastly, I do not think it is a good idea to use dashes after the caliber in some weapons and not in others as it appears totally arbitrary and would look odd on a category listing.

Ok, please let me do another suggestion then with your opinions taken into account:

OLD NAMES --> NEW NAMES

45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K) --> no changes

37-mm M1939 (61-K) --> 37 mm automatic air defense gun M1939 (61-K)

5 cm Pak 38 --> no changes

7.5 cm Pak 40 --> 7,5 cm Pak 40

FlaK 38 --> 2 cm Flak 38


This way it would be shorter, and the dashes are removed.

Is this acceptable?

Btw how can I change the page names? Do I have the needed authorizations or can only admins do it?

If I can do it myself, would you please be so kind and post a brief description how to?

Thanks

Anyone please? I have a lot of stuff prepared and would like to get started.

Shorten automatic air defense in 37 mm M1939 to AAA (to make the name shorter), since it's generally accepted to mean "Automatic Anti-Air", and I'm fine with that. Similarly, we could shorten anti-tank gun in 45 mm M1937 to AT for the reason that it's a generally accepted acronym for "Anti-Tank".

The 7.5 in 7.5 cm Pak 40 should stay as it is because that's how it's done in American English, as this is an American website. I'm not a believer in policies of writing pages in the subject's "native" language format like Wikipedia has.

I'm fine with the rename from Flak 38 to 2 cm Flak 38.

So after another review, how about this:

OLD NAMES --> NEW NAMES

45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K) --> 45 mm AT gun M1937 (53-K)

37-mm M1939 (61-K) --> 37 mm AA gun M1939 (61-K)

5 cm Pak 38 --> no changes

7.5 cm Pak 40 --> no changes

FlaK 38 --> 2 cm Flak 38

What do you think? Could somebody please change the page names to this?

Ah found out how to do it, will change the pages according to your suggestions. Thanks for the input!

You're sticking with the weird European 2 cm (rather than 20 mm) but doing away with FlaK in favor of Flak?

Yep, this is because it is the most common designation all around the Internet and discussion boards and also called officially that way. People who come here will search for 2 cm.

It is also standardize with the Pak guns which always used the same format.

If you like I can create redirects with mm for those guns?


I know there will be different opinions how this or that should be designated, but we have to find a compromise otherwise we can never make any progress.

I included all your other suggestions in the other guns, but People will always have different opinions.

I hope this is ok for you.


Btw I will work on the other guns the next few days and add even more. There is a ton of work ahead of me but I am almost finished with the 2 cm Flak 38 page (and all related pages).

Europeans use 2cm but Americans (at least when I was in) use 20mm. If we have to set a standard, again, we can do what we did for titles. If there is any confusion or contention on the nomenclature, then being an AMERICAN site, we defer to the American standard. But of course, it is a European weapon then I defer to the original designation :D

Well, we went with 7.5 cm rather than the European 7,5 cm, why not just go all the way with 75mm?

The way I see it is that the "7,5 cm" was actually part of the designation of the weapon so it should be included in principle in that form, however I think that we should use a period rather than a comma as this is the equivalent of converting a Cyrillic Russian designation into a Latin alphabet one. After all, in English "7.5 cm" is a sensical dimension but "7,5 cm" isn't and to most native English speakers would seem strange and most likely be perceived as a typo.

Also, with the German designations I am in favour of capitalising the K in PaK and FlaK, as this is essentially the same as what we do for other German weapons like the MKb 42(H), StG 44, StG 45(M), MP 40 and MG 42.

C'mon man, we can't be using them filthy yuropeon designations. This is MURRICA, it'd be spitting right in the founding fathers' faces to defer to them unwashed peasants over yonder

You are correct. I for one would like to see 75mm. Too many people confuse 7.5 cm with 7.5mm. WAY too many people. For the sake of clarity we should maintain everything in an easy to comprehend way. :D

We could go with 75mm, then. I have no issue with that.

Personally I think that the 7.5 cm is better as it is closer to the original designation. If we don't want to use cm for whatever reason, then why include a caliber at all? Just call it "PaK 40" or "PaK 40 AT gun" or whatever.

So to move forward this project I want to list what already exists on IMFDB. Lets focus on this first before I add the other new pages (which will then be added according to the Standardisation we agree on for the existing pages). Maybe we can then find a standardised format for all pages:

Already exist (what they are called atm):

45 mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K)
45mm anti-tank gun M1942 (M-42)
37-mm M1939 (61-K)

3.7 cm Pak 35/36
5 cm Pak 38
7.5 cm Pak 40
2cm FlaK 38
Flakvierling 38
Bofors 40mm
Oerlikon 20mm Cannon
M51 Quad


Already exist (what they should be called - STANDARDISED):

45mm AT Gun M1937 (53-K)
45mm AT Gun M1942 (M-42)
37mm AA Gun M1939 (61-K)

3.7cm Pak 35/36
5cm Pak 38
7.5cm Pak 40
2cm Flak 38
2cm Flakvierling 38
Bofors 40mm Gun
Oerlikon 20mm Cannon
M45, M51, M55 Quadmount

I took the suggestions above into accound already. What do you think?

I believe FlaK is more correct given where the name comes from, same with PaK. There's no point in adding "2cm" to the Flakvierling since there was never a Flakvierling in any other calibre. Also why are we adding "gun" to the Bofors? The most common name for it is just "Bofors 40mm," if anything we should take "cannon" off the Oerlikon.

(edit: oops, thought this was a new suggestion, nvm)

This site SHOULD go with the US Military Standard. We call 4cm guns 40mm guns, etc. or "Forty Mike Mike"

7.5cm should be 75mm. I know the original european designation was different. But I don't like mixing standards. So much of our stuff is Millimeters versus Centimeters. We should keep it the same. We 'can' mention how the original gun was described when it was unveiled in the paragraph about the gun.

Make up your mind. :p

That said, I have yet to weigh on this one fully but my take - I'm with c552 about just omitting calibers entirely, there's really no overlap to have to differentiate it further there. Barring that, If we have to use calibers, as FCM said why not go all the way with mm if we're doing away with the 'original' commas for decimals - That and though I know they use the cm designation as part of the actual names we aren't using the full actual names anyway in the case of the PaK and FlaK and so on (I am in favor of the K capitalization, however); I would consider allowing it if we had pieces with similar or same model numbers but that doesn't seem to be the case here - There isn't any real overlap in the remainder of the model names/numbers we have. As said the original 'cm' classification/designation as well as the full name itself can be noted in the writeup, and maybe even used as redirect links if one so desires.

Would it be too much to appeal to other measurements since our site is viewed internationally. I think for a page that's about an American movie, measurements should be in American and for a more international movie, it should use other measurements.

I was 'for it before I was against it!' ..... yep ....

My thinking had changed during the course of time. ;) I'm allowed to modify my position ya know ;) hahahaha So my LATER posts reflect my current opinion on the subject :D LOL

I used to be a purist, but then I saw how many people (usually in America) who got cm and mm confused. For the sake of CLARITY we should use ONE standard and that standard should be American.

If anyone from another country wants to bitch, they can create their own site.