M16A4 in the Army
 

Does anyone here know at what level usage of the M16A4 is within the US Army?

Most of what I find on this subject only says it's "in use by some units of the US Army" without any details (which I've been hearing for a couple of years now). Are there any released details about it?

I don't think it's ever been officially adopted. Only the Marines issue the M16A4 in large numbers. Technically, the M16A2 is still standard-issue in the Army, though just about all of our soldiers who are actually in combat (in Afghanistan and Iraq) are using M4s. Dunno if there are any released details about it, but that's the impression you get just from looking at pics from both theaters of operations.

I've seem quite a few photographs in the war zones that have A4s. In fact I rarely see pictures of plain A2s, but that's also influenced by what the photographers (and photo editors) deem 'sexy'.

You've seen Army guys, wearing ACUs, using A4s? I'm sure there are some (assuming Wikipedia is accurate), but probably 95% of the Army personnel I've seen in Iraq pictures seem to have only M4s. I used to see them with M16A2s back in the early days of the war ('03-'04), but now it seems to be almost exclusively M4s and an occasional M16A2.

I do, of course, see Marines (wearing MARPAT desert camo) all the time carrying the M16A4.

It's mostly rear echelon troops carrying M16A2s, the carbines go to the front line troops that need them.

Speaking of the A4s, I saw vids of US troops handing out A4s for the Iraqi army, switching the AKs that were in current use.

I'm pretty sure that's only for select units right now. Most of the Iraqi Army are still issued AKs - however, the best units (that is, the ones which have actually proven competent to carry out operations without being baby-sat by our troops) are getting issued M16A4s and M4s.

Iraq has ordered a large quantity of M-16A4 for their Army. This is from a government publication.(2006: 50,750 M16A2 rifles, 50,750 M4A1 carbines; 2007: 123,544 M16A4 Rifles and 12,035 M4 Carbines) They have also just received 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks for their army. Their air force is look at F16 fighters also.

2008 request from Iraq
* 100,000 M16A4 Assault Rifles
* 140,000 M16A4 Magazines
* 100,000 M4 Weapons
* 4,000 AN/PVS-7D Night Vision Devices
* 1,100 40mm Grenade Launchers
* 3,300 9mm Pistols with Holsters
* 400 Aiming Posts


We are training them and their mindset is that we want the the Americans have and that's what they are buying at this time.

Hmmm, interesting, thanks for this info. I remembered reading about the purchase of the M1s and the increasing numbers of M16s and M4s, but I didn't realize that the Iraqis actually wanted to ditch their AKs for M16s. While they're at it, they also ought to ditch those surplus "chocolate chip" uniforms we donated to them, too.

Now, as long as they use the weapons to actually fight those jihadist bastards, and don't go Saudi on us, I'll be OK with the idea...

I think the main worry in the region is Iran. With Iraq, and Kuwait having similar equipment and training it will go along way to help them with that problem. The other item that will help them is they will be able to use Iranian ammo if it ever comes to that. The Iranians main rifle in the Chinese CQ which is a copy of the early M16A1's with new style furniture. The Chinese setup a factory to build that weapon in Iran. The CQ was originally built to supply the Philippine insurgents along with they M14 clone but I guess that did not pay as well when they found out the Philippines were Islamic and not Communist.

The thing I worry about is the fact that the Dawa Party (al-Maliki's party) used to be Iranian proxies during the Iran-Iraq War. Not sure I feel comfortable handing billions in American-made weaponry to people like that. But, I guess it was the best we could do.

Does Iran really use the CQ as standard-issue nowadays? I usually see them pictured with AK variants, and I know they manufacture the Type 56 under license. They used to use G3s (also made under license, dating back to the days of the Shah), but I think those have been mostly phased out nowadays.

Ironic how, despite the fact that they hate America, they're using an American-made rifle, seeing as the CQ is nothing more than a refurnished M16A1...

Well that's saying America hates communists but we love their AK47s.

Good point.

Most people who have a choice would rather take an M16 over an AK. The AK may have a reputation for being more reliable and less mechanically complex than the M16, but the M16 and derivatives are more accurate, more ergonomic, and far better suited to the needs of a conventional army today.

As Pheonixent has explained, however, the CQ was originally manufactured after the Sino-Soviet split to aid guerrilla armies that were hostile to the Soviets, but receiving aid from both the U.S. and China. The Chinese probably figured that those groups would be receiving lots of 5.56x45mm ammo from the U.S. But the reality was that the U.S. only ever sent AKs and 7.62x39mm ammunition made by countries no longer aligned with the USSR, like Egypt and China. Or Soviet-made stuff captured by the Israelis and South Africans.

I believe Norinco makes an M4 copy, too, nowadays.

Hey man, I've seen a Neo-Nazi weilding an Uzi. You can't be racist towards a hunk of metal that you use for violence, and since when has blind hatred ever made any sense?

I think I remember hearing once that arms dealers in the Palestinian territories always have a harder time selling Uzis and Galils to Palestinian militias than they do selling AKs and M16s. Come to think of it, I've never seen a Hamas gunman carrying an Israeli-made weapon, but I have seen the secular leftist Palestinian factions (Fatah, PFLP, etc.) carrying them.

It was a qoute from Lord of War. "I've sold Isreali made Uzis to Muslims. I've sold communist bullets to facists. I;ve even made money selling arms in Afganistan against my fellow soviets. I've never sold to Osama bin laden. Not on any moral grounds, back then he was bouncing checks."

Eh, no. I saw a photo of a Neo-Nazi, not a muslim, with an Uzi.
http://funwithcontrollers.files.word...08/05/nazi.jpg
There we go.

And i was just qouting the movie because someone brought it up

That's pretty funny...although if you want to get nitpicky, she's holding the Uzi CARBINE, which is the semi-auto civvie version, not an actual Uzi subgun.

Iranian PSD use UZI that are made in Iran. Elements of Iranian SF use AR15 that are made in Iran.

Hezbollah and Hamas has their own small arms weapon factory. The factory produce AR and AK.

The Iranian Uzis and AR-15s are actually just licensed copies from Norinco, aren't they? The Chinese have manufactured both the CQ (AR-15) and Uzi clones for a while now, and just about everything the Iranians make is licensed from them.

Hezbollah and Hamas make ARs and AKs? I find that hard to believe because I've seen lots of videos of their Qassam rockets, which are no matter advanced than anything I could build in my back yard. Their Yasin RPGs, likewise, are extremely crude copies of the RPG-2. I always figured that Iran and Syria provided them with their AKs, while the M16s were stolen from the Israelis and South Lebanese Army (for Hamas and Hezbollah, respectively)? Not to mention that the U.S. left behind a huge number of M16A1s when we pulled out of Lebanon in the early-80s.

Firearms are simple machine. You got 10 years old kids in Africa building AKs. Hell I saw a video on youtube video a while back where a guy made an AK in a cave.

Firearms were invented in a time where there was no electricity, no cars, no computers, no phones, no airplanes, no pumping, no public school, etc. If they were able to do it with little education, I'm sure most of you are capable of it.

It isn't hard to mass produce firearms.

I don't see why the Iranian needs to buy licensed copies from the Chinese. It's not like they own the patents. Those expire long ago and the Chinese didn't invent or patent them. All they need from the Chinese are milling machines which doesn't cost much or they could make it themselves.

Hezbollah and Hamas makes AK, AR, and whatever firearms they like in their home, garage, or any place that can give them privacy. The Iranian also supplies them with ARs.

Hezbollah and Hamas mainly use ARs.

This is an Iranian made AR that is use by Hezbollah:
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829

This is an Hezbollah made AR. Notice it is flat top. It is not A1 or A2 and look brand new.
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829

(was limited to four pictures per post)

Here are the Israeli PSD personnel. Notice they have color strip on their AR? They are there to determined friends or foe because Hezbollah and Hamas gunmen mostly use AR.
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main...6fb41d9da87829

Here is a video where a bunch of terrorists are using AR. Notice the AR. Those were not made in the 70's.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=c...=526&Itemid=39

We gave a lot of AR to the Lebanon government. We did not leave it around like it was suggested in the movie Lord of War. The Lord of War to me was 100% pure Hollywood BS.

Point taken on "Lord of War". I have heard (not from a movie) that the U.S. left behind many M16s in Vietnam, so I figured it would make sense if the same happened in Lebanon. But that's what I get for trusting Hollywood. :(

Hezbollah actually runs gun factories? I do realize that many of the militants manufacture weapons, but I always figured the stuff they made was pretty simple. The rockets and RPGs I see are crude stuff, so I never would have imagined they could build something like an M4 (like that one Hezbollah gunman is holding) and build all the plastic parts and all that.

AKs would be simple to make, though - I have seen images of tribesmen in Pakistan (mostly NWFP and FATA) who can make exact copies of the AKM and Type 56. They're pretty good copies, too, although I think they lack chrome-lined barrels.

I do apologize if I came in too strong with my comments. It was not my intention.

I believe there was only 1,800 or so Marines that was stationed in Lebanon between 1982-1984. There wasn't much to be left behind by the Marines. The arms assistant program did provide lots of weapons to the Lebanese government. You still see government troops using A1 or A2 rifles and US armored vehicles.

Hezbollah makes their weapons in their own home, business shops, schools, etc. Not a full blown weapon factory per said.

AK receiver are made out of 1mm sheet metal. You can buy AK flats for around $13.00-$50.00 each depending on where it came from without the needs for FFL transfer.

http://www.copesdistributing.net/ind...sort=2a&page=1

For AR, the lower can be built on any material that is strong enough to hold the the upper and trigger pack. I've seen pictures where the lower receiver was built with wood. They can get away with it because the lower receiver is stress free.

Here one that was built from a cutting board.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3chSzLxPuzU

Anyway great site that back their information with proofs (picture still from movie). Keep up the good work!

"Too strong"? What?

I have heard the South Lebanese Army receives surplus American and Israeli M16 rifles (mostly A1s and A2s), and I figured this was the primary source of such weapons for Hezbollah gunmen.

As far as AKs go, I agree those are quite easy to manufacture compared to AR-15s/M16s. I've even encouraged my Dad to try and built a receiver himself (he wouldn't bother with the flat) and complete the rest with an AK parts kit. Though I'm sure he could build the entire thing from scratch if need-be.

Glad you like our site!

The whole international small arms smuggler is overblown. In the past I have seen Youtube videos where third world kids are making AKs and selling them for $50 in weapons market. Who wants to buy an $800 AK from an international small arms smuggler when you can go get one for $50 in the open arms market. Support the local economy you know.

Most third world killings are done with blade and blunt weapons. If you look at all the genocide in Africa, you will find by far the weapon of choice are blade and blunt weapons.

The latest news is that Mexico are getting AR for the USA. These Mexican's drug gangs are using full auto AR. So I doubt it was made from the USA.

In the US full auto AR cost well over 25k each if you can get someone to sell it to you. Those full auto AR are made in Mexico by Mexicans. If you're a drug lord, which would be cheaper? Buy a 10k CNC milling machine and produce all the full auto AR that you like. Or try find someone in the USA willing to sell you a full auto AR for at least 25k and then smuggle it back to Mexico?

You could always buy a semi AR and convert it. Also, I've seen pictures of confiscated arms in Mexico. I see plenty of ARs with 16" barrels, which is the U.S. civvie-required length.

Most of the sources I've seen claim that a majority of the guns in Mexico (used by both cartels and civilians looking for protection) are coming from the States, although it's hard to get an exact percentage.

There is also a lot of weapons coming out of the Mexican Military and Police. I would like to see the photos on the AR carbines to see if they are LE models sent down to the Mexican Police. I know of a Colt 9mm SMG that was sent to El Salvador that was confiscated in a drug house in LA. I had it in my hand looking it over and it was mint. The drug cartel got it when they arrived.

There is actually no proof that most of the guns that are in Mexico came from the USA illegally.

I would like to see the serial numbers and roll marks on all the guns that was taken by the drug runners. I bet you only a minority of it came from the USA. The rest are made in Mexico by Mexicans.

Here's one pic:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...AV9bk/610x.jpg
http://www.daylife.com/photo/08mz3GZcAV9bk

Some of these look like they're probably mil-spec/LEO, but quite a few seem to be civvie types. It is true that the cartels are definitely not getting their stuff only from U.S. gun stores, but there are definitely lots of weapons that they are acquiring over here. The Five-Sevens and PS90 carbines (the "matapolicias", as they call them) are almost surely being bought over here.

Also, I live in Texas, and some of the local FFLs here have actually talked about suspicious people buying guns in their stores, who they suspect might be willing to sell them across the border. It used to be something of a taboo to discuss, I understand, but there's been a lot more chatter about the issue lately.

The estimates are all over the place. I don't trust the ones given by the Mexican government, but most sources I looked at agree a majority are guns that were bought in U.S. gun stores.

Also, I doubt most of them are manufactured by the Mexicans. I've seen quite a few pictures of arms caches confiscated by the authorities, and I've seen stuff like gold-plated 1911s and Desert Eagles, FN PS90 carbines and Five-Seven pistols, old "post-ban" AKs with the thumbhole stocks, and some type of AR pistol. I can't imagine that the Mexicans are making those. It may be possible, but the weapons simply look way too much like the ones I've seen for sale on the 'Net, and at my local FFLs. I'm not sure Mexicans have the same sort of experience building guns as the Pushtun in Central Asia.

I have seen lots of stuff that they aren't getting from the U.S., however - GPMGs, RPG-7s, PKMs, LAW rockets, various types of grenades. Also plenty of short-barreled AR-15 variants (which wouldn't be legal in the U.S.) and H&Ks.

Also, here's a Five-Seven confiscated from a cartel arms stash:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...0ja5F/610x.jpg

In this one, you can actually see the serial number - it wasn't even filed off. You can also see that the gun is marked "FNH-USA". The caption beside the photo on the web site says that the guns were captured while being smuggled across the border.

Did it mention anything about where that AKMSU in the background is from?

It said both were part of a cache that was intercepted in transition across the border. Also, I don't think that's a factory AKMSU; it looks like one of those Century Arms AK pistols (it has no folding stock, if you look closely).

There is a lot of Colt LEO carbines 16" barrel notched for the M203 with late style buttstocks. I don't know it the Mexican Government actually captured those or put on a dog and pony show like Ruby Ridge. You take a few weapons that are captured and add your own hoping no one would notice. What I find interesting on the photos is the amount of LEO there are in the small sample. Colt has a six month back log on LEO due to so many PD's buying them for the patrol cars. The other thing that funny with this is the Mexican Government refused to give the serial numbers to ATF so there is no way to cross check where this stuff is coming from.

You know that can't be in Mexico as Guns are outlawed in Mexico.:D

Wow, those Five-Sevens are a lot bigger than they look in pictures.

Oh don't worry. They are a LOT lighter than you think. Took me by surprise when I held one, considering the size of it.