Profanity in movie quotes
 

There's been some debate over whether movie quotes within movie pages that contain profanity or other perhaps offensive language should be censored. Currently, the site does censor movie quotes on the main page (which is sensible since this is the first page any user will see when first accessing the page).

The question is, should this apply to all movie pages? Should they be censored or completely removed?

According to the Rules Standards and Principles page, swearing should be kept to a minimum in discussion pages and perhaps this should also extend to the actual movie pages as well.

Comments are welcomed, especially from admins.

I've already stated my opinion on this, which is no. While it's not enormously necessary to include quotes in captions, if we do include them (a decision for the person making the page, really), we should quote the line directly from the movie, not modify it to make it wrong by throwing in random wingdings. Writing "f*ck" looks childish and no actor has ever said "fstarck" in a movie.

Apart from anything else, our readers will presumably be old enough to see the movie in question and hear the actual line, so it's not like there's any point pretending it isn't there. I can see arguments for censoring nudity in screencaps to keep the site safe for work (and thus it's probably a good idea to add a rule to the rules and standards page saying we don't do X / NC-17 / unrated porn movies, because you know someone's going to try it sooner or later), but I'd argue overt censorship of language and starring out words looks less professional than just having the lines as they are.

It could be argued that placing an asterisk is the equivalent of using a "bleep" to censor language in audio and visual media. Professional media such as newsmagazines and broadcast television will often censor language that they feel doesn't meet their standards and practices.

Yes, and I've never been a fan of it: it's not like it hides what the word is supposed to be (with bleeps you often get part of the word anyway), and it seems to be done in the bizarre belief that children don't already know all those words from the playground anyway. Certainly, our readers are supposed to be big enough and ugly enough to know them, so what's the purpose of pretending they don't? As an addition, it's usually the case that the more respectable a publication is, the more it prides itself on treating readers like adults: tabloid newspapers over here will censor, but the broadsheets and former broadsheets will quote bad language precisely as it was said.

A) I think we're overestimating the average age of the users here, and B) technically, language would make something NSFW. Keep in mind, we've censored gore as well, as well as nudity. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution. Aside from it being weird to look at, where's the harm?

I vote not to censor.

Often times quoting what they are saying in the scene explains it better than having "John Connor holds a Glock 36 to his head."

Seeing a profane word in print is much different than it being said out loud.

Also about censoring gore. I thought it was stupid to censor the gore on the SPR page.

This is NOT up for a vote. We maintain a professional standard in text and images (but mostly for nudity, not for gore so much) because people IN the industry use IMFDB as a scholastic resource, something which many OTHER sites cannot claim.

I have seen NEGATIVE response personally when very HIGH RANKING or important people in the industry happened upon a page where there was a lot of vulgar and profane idiocy (mostly by a single former member. No, not the one who was banned, but this member swore every other word). We are not here to look like we're a bunch of profane 14 yr olds.

Of course the valid question is: Does IMDB allow profane quotes? Yes, but IMDB is a behemoth with MILLIONS of users each day (and only 17 mods). There is too much of IMDB that is used for by industry professionals, the 'quotes' section is a very SMALL portion of the site's footprint. Note that PROFANITY is frowned upon in the 'reviews' section or the 'summary' section .... the sections that the general public sees first. Even in the message boards, you put in certain profane words, the software AUTOMATICALLY censors you. If you post too much swearing in your message, the Mods will delete your discussion board post.

Someone always (with regularity) comes up and complains that they can't swear on the main movie pages. I say, "too fucking bad"... those are the rules. Live with them. ;)

I'm curious, what's the movie?

But I don't think quotes should be censored. There shouldn't be swearing on discussion pages and intros, but quotes should stay intact.

Saving Private Ryan.

The quotes were never an original part of IMFDB. It just started to creep in. IN fact, we are not a movie review site. People just started putting in Quotes like IMDB did and then it started as a nice little trivia item on the main page, but we are first and foremost a GUN REFERENCE IN MOVIES (et al) site. We also don't allow ANY quotes that are not 'gun related specifically'. People who make pages like to put in cute quotes from the film, but many do not. We are not all about the 'quotes'. That is NOT the focus of this site.

Honestly I was not in favor of censoring the quotes in the first place and I'm still not, even if high profile people come on here. Keeping personal swearing to a minimum so as to keep professional is one thing, and I support that, but all due respect, if they're part of the film industry they should consider that the quotes aren't ours and don't reflect the user or admin base, granted we do pick which quotes show and which don't, but most of them are pretty iconic and just NEED to be included if anything is to be. They should also consider that those quotes are part of art made by artists and it's not fair to want to see their work censored.

As far as the professional nature of the site is concerned, a lot of the pages, including some major ones, lack an aesthetic of professionalism, and we're a Wiki as well, so even if we censor swear words we have a dozen other things that can potentially make us seem up-professional, and at the end of the day, we are, since it's a Wiki and it's more or less free for anyone to edit, and as such there's irregular uniformity. Back to the matter at hand though, if people can't handle some swear words in iconic movie quotes, I say we just get rid of them, especially if they are going to be butchered with asterisks. I'd sooner see no quotes on the site at all like MPM is suggesting then to see them that way. It sucks the life out of them and makes this site too PG for the content we represent (firearms useage to a minimal extent, as well as R-Rated movies and the like).

tl;dr: Just get rid of the quotes completely.

Of course you are free to speak your mind, but consider your ALL OR NOTHING attitude. I'd rather be worried about WRONG info, or some of the juvenile stuff that we missed, than this (IMHO) irrelevant issue. I for one question how NOT tossing the F bomb everywhere makes us less legitimate. Please. I'm going to start asking for everyone's age. Between 14-18 think a certain way, between 18-30 think a certain way, etc. Since many members NEVER contemplate how IMFDB is seen to other professionals in the industry, let me just reiterate this point from the Rule and Regs:

"IMFDB is an information resource, not our private playground

This is a source of Information for weapons and movie buffs around the world. Certainly it is tempting to think of IMFDB as one's own personal 'playground' but please realize that we do this work to serve others."

Errrrrm...Are we looking at the same IMDB here?

They seem just fine with this word when it appears in movie titles, and even this one gets a free pass. (You might want to not have anyone easily offended looking over your shoulder before clicking that).

They seem to have the same policy I'd prefer; users can't swear, but movies can. In the interests of accuracy, you report exactly what is said. Openly censoring encourages further censorship, and I really don't think it'll look professional if our Sin City page is talking about a character called "Yellow B*****d."

28 over here. My take on this is I find "starring" looks childish; everyone knows what you mean, so either say it or don't say it. I agree with you that the kind of swearing-as-punctuation that Oliveira (since we all know who you mean) used was excessive and pointless and should be discouraged (in the kid's defence, according to his user page he actually was 14), but I'm with Yournamehere; if we don't want to quote the line precisely as it was said, we shouldn't quote it at all. Also, since I cap videogames with the subtitles on, some of my screencaps might have profanity in them, and putting little black boxes over words is just going to look silly.

I say the following with utmost sincerity, no mean tone or anything.

It's all, nothing, or a compromise I find unreasonable and unfair to the quotes themselves for the reasons I've already stated. With all being their censorship and nothing being them gone completely, I say nothing.

I'm worried about that stuff too, but the quotes are on the front page and are one of the first things visitors to the site see. For every professional in the industry I'm sure we have dozens if not hundreds or thousands of regular people who will probably look at us and either laugh or question why a site that documents fictional gun usage and murder would worry about the F word in an instance where an actor said it as in a quote. We're not liable for that wording, save for allowing the quotes to be posted, but, again, it's art, and most of the quotes worth posting have swear words in them. Perhaps some people have kids coming on here and of course we have these people from the industry, but not having the quotes at all gives them nothing to get offended by just as well, if not more, than the words still there and censored.

I don't think it should be tossed around either, but allowing the preservation of quotes with swear words is not tossing it around. And again, if they're gone, it doesn't make us less legitimate either, to use the same argument.

I don't think of this place as my playground at all, I totally get the desire and the need to be mature and objective about the site. That being said, if we have to stick to the idea that IMFDB is just guns in movies, and not an encyclopedia for guns or movies, then again, getting rid of the quotes doesn't harm the site, as some of the ones I've seen don't even mention guns by name, or their firearms referencing is broad or inaccurate anyway, which works against being accurate or specific, something we should be doing for the site. Their contribution is minimal at the very best and certainly not as valuable as the Did You Know section or a Featured Page.

Looking/being professional is important, but getting rid of the censored quotes can only help that and keep us from looking silly to the rest of the IMFDB audience to whom we also cater.

If you're requesting ages too, I'm 19 for what (little) it's worth. I also agree with Tim's input as well.

I'm not html savvy enough to know how to do this, but I think a good compromise on the matter would be one of those word blocker highlights.

If something is obscene or offensive, a highlight will go over it saying "NSFW", and if one wishes to view that word or phrase, they just hover their cursor over it and the highlight goes away.

If someone knows how to do that on this style wiki, think that would work? It'd be useful for spoilers too.

It's by no means a vault blocking all virgin eyes from locked away corruptions, but it would at least put the option in the hands of the viewers, insteading of compromising our reputation.

If we're gonna do that, we might as well take the swear quotes off the main page and do the disclaimer I proposed on the front page, in the Rules, or both, especially since some people supported the idea when I brought it up the first time this was an issue. It'll be simpler and all encompassing of the site and all of the content with which people can have a problem with, swear words, people getting shot and everything in between.

Or perhaps there's a way to make a "safe" version of the site and allow people to toggle it.

I'm still not sure how this is supposed to adversely affect our reputation; the handful of f-bombs on this wiki have in some cases been here for years without causing the End of All Things at any point along the line. I don't think we should change a policy that worked (quoting accurately) because of a puritanical vandal whose other edits are about 80% garbage and who doesn't know the difference between a clip and a magazine.

I think the issue is that, because people in the industry have likely heard word of this site or been recommended it, it's a negative thing for them to come across this site and see it's filled with language. It could be viewed as unprofessional, and hurt our reputation and the reputation of those who recommended the site.

Do I agree with the censorship? No. But I understand the concept that even if I don't believe in censorship, I won't keep a job at a respectable business very long if I tell my boss my favorite version of "The Aristocrats" joke. Not everyone has the same outlook on things. Some people see curse words as words, some see them as super offensive and immature forms of expression. Sometimes, you have to bite the bullet to make some sort of compromise.

As MPM said, this site is not our personal playground, and if a majority see it fit to censor profanity to maintain our positive image and professionalism, we should act accordingly and solve the issue.

Yes, but the manner in which it's been bought up still bothers me: no matter how you put it, it feels like we're letting an extremely immature and borderline-useless user get his way if we go along with this.

Okay, I think we should codify a standard that fits the general (not the exceptions) for American Broadcast television. That should make everyone happy (help me out with suggestions folks). The problem is that we suddenly have a new member who (i think) has good intentions but is rubbing other members the wrong way with censoring foul language all over the place. Unfortunately, some of this language is acceptable (if it is acceptable during PRIME TIME on network AMERICAN TV, we should accept it here).

I know on paper this looks weird, but bear with me:

Censored words:
Fuck
Shit (used 'once' on NCIS and never again)
Cunt
Blowjob (though technically NOT a profanity but an explicit noun for a sexual act, better safe than sorry).
Asshole (used on cable but not free broadcast)


Words that are not censored on Broadcast TV anymore:
Bitch
Son of a Bitch (or any spelling variant)
Bastard
Anal
Goddam (Used to be taboo in the 1970s, you could say 'Damn" but now I hear it all the time on TV, again, profane but from a purely religious perspective)
Faggot (usually any epithet creates uproar NOT because it is profane but because it offends a specific group)
Nigger (unfortunately most epithets are accurate descriptors of people's prejudices from various points in history, including today. This was a common term in the 19th century and was used by Mark Twain, so it stays).
Any racial epithet (Again, these are not considered profane, just offensive)

more suggestions?.....

I've heard "shit" uncensored on broadcast TV, but only on FX and one episode of South Park on Comedy Central. "Ass" by itself is also frequently uncensored on broadcast TV (The Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.).

I think "asshole" is okay now too. I remember hearing it on NYPD Blue when it was still on.

First of all, "shit" has been used a lot on network television in the last few years and is more or less acceptable nowadays given the usage. I cite several South Park episodes, Several Comedy Central stand up programs, Nip Tuck, NCIS as you've said and I few others I can't remember. Furthermore, Comedy Central further pushes the envelope by using "fuck" during their later night programming (usually after 1 AM or so), as well as other otherwise censored words or phrases.

I bring this up for two reasons, one because the swearing standard is slowly coming down around us (yes you said Prime Time, but TV is TV all day more or less with regard to censorship), and two because based on that, TV allows us to say the words being disputed which are pretty much "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" at this point.

Furthermore this is a site based on movies, so why not just go by movie rating standards instead? If your answer is "because we just can't allow "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" on the site and retain professional nature" I must retort and say that is false. I don't think members should curse profusely, perhaps at all, on the site, but you aren't acknowledging my argument that what we're attempting to censor are quotes that are not ours and don't reflect us. And to dig up an argument already used, IMDB doesn't censor their quotes (granted they aren't on the front page) and they're a pretty credible site. We aren't them nor do we have their visitorbase, but that doesn't mean we have to water down because a few high profile people might frown upon us because of some idea that small sites must adhere to more strict standards of censoring content, not the people on here, they should hold their tongues, I agree with that, but the content we allow on the site like the quotes. Don't forget, again, despite this place not being our playground, that this is on a playground sort of medium, the internet, and that there are expectations of this medium as well, as in there being more leniency of content on here.

I just feel like there's a policy hole in posting censored quotes. If we're a database for people to look for movie guns, the quotes are unnecessary and they should be gone, period. If not, then we are a site about movies as well as guns and therefore we should take on more of a lax approach, especially given this is the internet and a site we are compared to does the same. Just as well, even if swearing is on the site and someone high profile does view the site, do you honestly think they will discount the entire site because of some visible profanity in a quote?

Just for the record, South Park is not considered "network television." It's cable. Same with anything on Comedy Central or FX. (And South Park IS edited for content when in syndication.) Network television in the US is CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, and CW. That's not counting what the affiliates chose to air on their own.

But, like the man said, it's a movie site. So, PG-13 standard?

Ah, okay, I wasn't aware of a distinction between network television and cable. All the same though, I don't see the parallel between this site's censorship rules and network television's specifically.

I wouldn't be so sure he has good intentions: most of his non-censoring edits are wrong (the SAS use M4s, or rather Candian-made C8s, and more to the point use M16s; moreover, the UK has adopted a version of the Lewis Machine & Tool .308 MWS as the L129A1), stupid or just plain bizarre. Despite that a good 80% of his edits have been reverted, he never tries to talk to anyone and never gives edit reasons. I really think he's either twelve years old or just trolling us.

You certainly seem to have vested a lot of your personal capital in this argument. The only thing I KNOW for a fact is that IMFDB will not become a profanity free for all. We are NOT like IMDB in many more ways than you mentioned (a) we don't moderate ALL items coming in ... THEY DO. If we had that sort of filter, we could go on a case by case basis but we don't. (b) we have too many kids and trolls creating trouble because of the Wiki format, Bunni did a great thing back in 2007, right now we seem to be a victim of our own success (c) we tend to attract too many people who fixate on certain things and just won't let it go (just looking at some of the VG arguments makes my head hurt). (d) we WILL always piss off someone. I remember putting my foot down against manga and books and I still got a boat load of grief about it from angry members. And most members don't see how many foreign members throughout the years complain about IMFDB being an American oriented site (with our standards, protocols, etc). That being said, I really have nothing else to say.

I agree wholeheartedly that it shouldn't be a festival of us swearing, as that can bring the respectable nature of the site down, but I really think the quotes should stay intact or go.

I think you're being a little hard on the userbase. We have a lot of great contributors, some who still have a fair bit to learn, and only a few out-and-out bad eggs, most of whom don't last long. I think the main issue is we don't have a proper "how to format articles" guide up yet, which is something I'm actually working on, plus there's a lot of badly formatted articles lurking in the depths which need to be bought up to standard.

But then nobody ever said this was going to be a cakewalk, and we're all still here. :cool:

There are a few things I will point out. I apologize if they've been mentioned before; I'm really busy right now and I didn't have time to read the entire topic. Anyway, my two cents:

(1.) When I first came to IMFDB, the movie quotes section already existed, and it contained a quote from Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels which used the F-word. I do not know if it was Bunni or someone else who added it. But profanity in the movie quotes has existed since IMFDB was created. Then again, there are a LOT of things that have changed about IMFDB since I came to the site, mostly for the better, so this isn't necessarily an argument in favor.

(2.) The movie quotes section exists purely for fun and humor. None of the quotes were penned by IMFDB members. Anybody, professional or otherwise, should recognize this fact. I don't believe that the movie quotes make us look "un-professional", and I was never in favor of censoring them.

(3.) I do agree that we do NOT want IMFDB members to openly swear on the actual pages or their discussion sections. That does make us look immature, and should not be tolerated. When Oliveria (who seems to be the whipping boy in this discussion) used to say stuff like "What the motherf*** is an M4A3?", it was embarrassing and cringe-inducing.

(4.) However, I do not believe that allowing profanity in movie quotes would necessarily open the door to swearing elsewhere (one of MPM's legitimate concerns) if we stated in the rules that profanity is only allowed in movie quotes and not elsewhere on the site. It seems like a pretty simple fix, and should take care of the problem.

(5.) I have seen IMDB get mentioned a bunch of times. IMDB's policy is basically that they do not allow profanity anywhere except in the "Memorable Quotes" section. Since we have often used IMDB as a model for things like movie titles, I think we should follow suit here, too. Nobody seems to think IMDB is un-professional for allowing profanity in quotes. Of course, IMDB also has filters, but I keep wondering - isn't there a way we could add the same thing to IMFDB (while making an exception for quotes)? I don't know much about Wiki software, but I find it hard to imagine there isn't a way to do this.

(6.) MPM, you have repeatedly brought up the issue of industry types looking at this site. I am asking this question with a sense of deja vu, because I'm pretty sure I've asked you this before, but why do you care so much? You know as well as anyone that Hollywood is filled with anti-gun liberals who are probably inclined to hate IMFDB for what it represents and the types of people who contribute to it (conservative, pro-gun, pro-military). You have even criticized those people on this very forum. I am sorry, but I just don't understand where you're coming from - you are expressing fear of being judged by a group of people even though there is already mutual disrespect and distrust between yourself and them. Please explain this to me. (And remember, I'm not disagreeing that we want to be professional or that too much profanity detracts from this goal; I just don't understand why industry people figure in your reasoning.)

(7.) My age is 26. By own admission, I'm also immature for my age; I'm often reminded of this by my significant other, who is five years my junior but WAY more mature than I will ever be. But maturity aside, I would prefer that my stance on this issue be judged by the content and quality of my arguments, rather than my age. :D

You missed the point completely. Yes, Hollywood is full of anti gun libs, but we were never talking about them. I don't care what the Liberals think. But lessening the 'gravitas' of the site actually makes MY job harder. Did you even realize how difficult it was was convince other armorers initially to let me photograph Screen used guns for 'this resource of movie/gun trivia on the net". This includes collectors who have rare weapons which are hard to get. IMFDB almost (and I mean ALMOST) was well known enough for someone to offer a "PRESS PASS" to the SHOT SHOW just to allow us (mainly me ;) ) to take exclusive pics of new weapons for IMFDB's use. Of course, one look at an old Oliviera rant nixed that right away..... :mad: About once a year, I try to get a boatload of new custom IMFDB pics. Though I am not sure of the impact of immature rants, it surely cannot help.

Why would we want to remove profanity from this wiki? So as long as it's not unnecessary, I think it's no worse than the various screenshots showing characters in films getting shot and possibly killed by the various weapons on this wiki.

And sometimes profanity helps a scene work. I think the final shootout by Al Pacino in the end of Scarface would be far less effective if he didn't use profanity the way he did. Are we going to pretend that the films we're adding screenshots to don't have the profanity they do by censoring them?

Seriously? You never mentioned this to me before (or did you)?

Anyway, nobody here is advocating a tolerance for behavior and language like that demonstrated by Oliviera. (Though it may be a moot point because he hasn't been on IMFDB in over a year, so I think it's safe to say he's gone for good, and he was the only user whose language was becoming a problem on the main site.) We all agree that we don't want the site to become a profanity free-for-all. I just don't think we need to worry so much about profanity in the movie quotes section; we should consider whether we can keep profanity in those quotes (which should not reflect poorly on us) while still keeping it off the rest of the Wiki.

Ah yes, but there are lots of screencaps on some movie pages which are there SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE of allowing the page maker to post some profanity laced quote. Now that's just stupid. I don't need to re-live the movie. The page is here to identify the gun, not relive the F bomb quotes that the characters are spouting. I say if it's going to be a problem. REMOVE ALL the quotes on the individual movie pages. Too many members just love to 'showcase' the f=bomb quotes on scenes that they love. But that's NOT the reason why this site exists.

Oh come on, there's no point having a Dirty Harry page if you can't put That Quote under That Image. As the saying goes, "everything in moderation." I'd agree that excessive quoting or using images just to swear under them is a bad thing, but I don't think that's particularly common and it can easily be discouraged.

I see it a bit. Just putting in 'cool scenes' with lots of attitude from a film just to quote the "F*** you!' comedic phrase, does not belong on the movie page. Does it help identify the gun? No. Now I'm not against general quotes or mild (which means little) trivia or background info which helps the viewer's educational experience. The F bomb quotes aren't an educational experience. They're there just for laughs. Sure it may be a classic funny line from the film. But so what? That's not what the page is for.

Movie REVIEW pages use quotes from the movie because they are showing 'slices' of the movie experience. IMFDB is here for one primary goal, to showcase and prove what firearms were used. Minor behind the scenes or filmmaking trivia is okay, but a screenshot which is there JUST to showcase a smart ass line of dialogue is not.

I just removed a Sexist remark from the Serenity page. It was a comment on a picture taken durring the chase scene that sugests that women are bad drivers. We don't need that kind of garbage on this site.

Besides I don't like getting punched by attractive women who have been upset by those sorts of things.

I'm all for keeping particularly notable quotes, or possibly if a character decides to gush over whatever weapon it is they're carrying, but using quotes solely for inserting profanity needs to be hammered.

I still think you're overstating this a little: from a site search, the word "fuck" appears in 17 articles out of, at last count, 7,480. Of those, 3,168 are media pages (categories movie, videogame, TV and anime), meaning 0.5% of media pages contain those words (perhaps the most surprising part of this is that none of those 17 are videogames). Of those, very few obviously have shots chosen just because they contain swearing; in some cases, the quotes are placed on the only shots actually containing the weapon (eg Magnum Force). In all the ones I looked at, the quotes match up to good shots of the weapon itself. In a lot of cases the language has been there for years without causing comment.

I have to say it mostly concerns me because I tend to screencap videogames with the subtitles on, and don't want to either add black boxes to screenshots (which would look ridiculous) or throw out perfectly good images just because they have "bad" subtitles on them. The same would apply to subtitled foreign movies and anime.

That was a joke. As in, humor. How is humor garbage? Why do you have a problem with that?