Questions
 

I am writing a book at the moment, and the Ciener Silenced Ruger Mark II intrigues me as the side arm for one of my central characters. As this site is associated with several actual gunsmiths, I thought I'd ask my questions here.

1. Can the Ruger Mark II be fired with non standard .22 ammunition such as high velocity rounds?

2. Can the Mark 3 be fitted with the same kinds of silencers as the Mark 2?

3. Just how silent is the Ruger when suppressed? Do any of the guns moving parts still produce significant audible noise, or is really and effectively silenced?

4. Is the Ruger Mark 2 with the Ciener silencer in this sites photos nickel plated or chrome finished or some such or is that the standard color of the gun?

5. Would you describe hitting someone in the skull with a Ruger Mark 2 or 3 from six blocks away as inconceivable, or physically impossible?

Planning to kill someone? 6 blocks is really pushing it for a .22, especially a handgun.

Most .22 handguns, including the Mk II handle high velocity rounds with ease. The bests IMO are Velocitors.

I believe the suppressor for the Mk II can be fitted to a Mk III, but some fitting may be required.

A suppressed .22 handgun automatic is ~ 50-60 Dec. This is including the air exiting the muzzle, the slide cycling and the empty casing ejecting. Using subsonic ammunition, such as high velocities, makes it even louder.

I'm pretty sure the gun on the site is all stainless.

Hope I helped. Don't consider me an accessory. :)

I think you mean supersonic rounds make the gun louder, as they break the sound barrier. Subsonic bullets don't and are inherently better for silenced weapons.

Also, a .22 is a poor choice for a distant kill, especially when something is attached to it that lowers it's velocity. Most of them are seen used at point blank range in movies. If I could suggest a different gun, give him a .45 of some sort. Not sure on the sound it makes, but it's subsonic, so it can't be too loud.

I should also point out that the term "silencer" is one of those words that, like using "clip" to describe what is actually a "magazine", should be banished from the vocabulary of firearms jargon forever. :)

While it isn't what many consider the perfectly accurate term, I don't think it's in league with the word clip in it's inaccuracy. A clip is a completely different mechanism than a magazine, as well as a slang term for magazine, where the term silencer, although slang, means the same thing as "sound suppressor." If anything it's better to say silencer as there are other types of suppressors, and saying sound suppressor is a mouthful. Sometimes you can cut corners with good enough words, granted that they're not completely wrong.

My Mistake
 

I meant supersonic, not subsonic. My head was elsewhere.

I missed the first sentence of the original post, so my mistake for questioning homicidal sounding questions. Oops.

True, but the fact is that "silencer" is a fairly inaccurate description of what a sound suppressor does.

Also, I usually just say "suppressor" myself, which isn't any more of a "mouthful" than saying "silencer".

I have to chime in on that 6 block headshot - unless the blocks in your city are alot shorter than in mine, that is 100% impossible with a handgun, .22 or otherwise. An exceptional shot might manage a headshot at 100 yards on a stationary target - your average shooter has trouble hitting center mass at 300 yards with an open-sighted rifle.

The point of the shot is that the character making it is possessed of inhuman abilities. Is the shot impossible because the bullet won't go the distance because of simple physics, super sonic or sub sonic no matter which, or because the skill required is impossible? The former requires a rewrite, the latter is a-ok.

And in response to the first question no, I'm not planning on killing anybody, but the clean lines and simplicity of the Ruger are attractive to me from a writing standpoint and the underpowered nature of the round seems to me to only accentuate the skill of a killer using it. However, if no .22 caliber round is capable of reasonable armor penetration, then I'll have to upgrade to a more reasonable handgun.

The idea here is that the shooter involved does things with the pistol that are seemingly impossible but still within the realm of physical possibility. If that is not true, than I need to find another weapon that will serve my purposes.

More specifically on why I like the Ruger as a silenced handgun because of the snub, close fitting almost integrated suppressor. The suppressor just replacing the barrel and not fitting onto the end of the barrel.

In the world of speculative gun alternatives, how does the Sig Sauer P220 and so on work on range fire, and what can be worked with silencers?

Also, I like the look of the integrated compensator on the Sig Sport. Now I understand that the idea of the silencer and the compensator clash pretty completely, but I'm willing to sacrifice the silenced aspect for the long range shot, which brings me to my next question. How would a full metal jacket, .45 ACP round smelted entirely out of Tungsten work for penetration on body armor, material, and soft targets?

Last edit. Could a silencer with an improvised Nielson device increase work on a smaller caliber handgun or just on browning style weapons and above?

A .22 round will go that far (at least out of a rifle), but no handgun has the accuracy to do that. It's not a question of skill, even if it's completley immobilised in a mechanical rest and you've got a ballistic computer handy, it simply does not have the intrinsic accuracy to make that shot. Handguns are handguns and rifles are rifles.

Although even with a rifle that's a hell of a shot - all false modesty aside, in the military I'm considered an above average marksman. Using an open-sighted rifle (specifically a C7 or SA80A2) I can knock down a man sized target at 300 meters all day long, anything much further is pushing it. Combat-type scope (3.4X C79A1 or 4X SUSAT) helps, but not by that much.

As for the .45ACP round, assuming you're talking about a solid tungsten round (an FMJ bulley is, by definition, not a single piece of solid metal), it's not going to penetrate body armor with a trauma plate - that's a low velocity round with a low ballsitic coefficient. It's doesn't do range or penetration well. At normal handgun range it'll penetrate the bodywork on a car, most interior walls, but nothing really solid. A standard 230-grain .45ACP FMJ round will barely dent 3/4" aluminum (in fact, of all the varied handguns I've tried, only a 7.62mm Tokarev comes close to penetrating - very close, in fact), and I very much doubt that a steel or tungsten cored round would do much better. Small and fast rounds penetrate, big slow ones don't.

A Neilson device (just a muzzle booster, really) applies to recoil-operated locked breech firearms only, which these days are pretty much only (most) pistols of 9mm Luger calibre and above. A smaller pistol is usually straight blowback with a fixed barrel, which aren't effected by the additional weight of a supressor anyways.

So conceivably, my marksman could equip himself with an Eastern Bloc pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev, construct his own rounds out of tungsten or some other high density or extremely hard metal, and be fairly confident in penetration? If so, my next question is accuracy.

What would you say is the most accurate and dependable modern pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev round, or is it strictly speaking a round one does not depend on for accuracy?

The Russian aspect is perfectly workable as the story has its roots in the Chechen War and this fits perfectly into the larger framework of the narrative.

What's more, what books would you gentlemen recommend I purchase to research the inner workings and functions of fire arms in detail, as well as the state of the modern fire arm?

Well, the only two worth mentionning are the Tokarev TT-33 and the Czech vz.52. Of the two, the Tokarev is alot handier and (contrary to what you'll sometimes read on the net) stronger, but the vz.52 actually has a safety and tends to be more accurate. Of course neither is what you'd call modern.

They're plenty accurate, considering how they're made, but they won't compete with a modern gun.

You might want to check out theboxoftruth.com. There's alot of good articles there that'll explain what guns can and can't do, and there's a good article on the cz.52 in there as well.

Dont watse your time with .22, get a bloody 9mm or something.
BTW, Rugers suck except for full auto Mini14

Rugers don't suck. They are fine guns (my first handgun was a Ruger Mk II, a very fine plinker). I've been reading some of your comments, you definately have your opinions. Some of them are a little one sided though. Calibers differ from shooter to shooter. A .22 is good for short to medium ranges if a head shot is possible. Control is very easy, stopping power is poor (it is a great suppressed gun because of the quietness and short action). 9mm is the intermediate sized round. Fast but deadly. It isn't a "man stopper" because it can go straight through a man and all the kinetic energy is lost. Large rounds like 10mm and .45 ACP are cumbersome and some shooters can't control the recoil but the rounds are slow and stop in the target, maximizing stopping power (but knocking a man off his feet is pure BS). I think for an assassin, exotic rounds like 5.7x28mm seem interesting. They are great for body armor but suffer the same flaw as the 9mm. I'm a .45 man myself, but no round is perfect.

Have you ever actually shot a Mini-14? No offense to anyone who owns them, they make a decent truck gun, but it's just about the most inaccurate new rifle on the market today, and I've handled Chinese guns with better fit and finish. In fact the Mini-14 is just about the only bad firearm Ruger makes (as bad as the ergonomics on the P89 are, they sure do shoot).

Ruger .22s are great pistols - the Mk.III is basically indestructible. I was talking to a guy who owns a rental range and he told be they see 1000s of rounds a week with limited cleaning and he hasn't had one wear out yet.

I have one of the older style Ruger Ranch rifle Mini-14s, blued. I heard the older models had a weak bolt so I have some spares. I think they are a great shooting gun, although they can be a little inaccurate. As a home defense gun, accuracy can be over come when you have a few fully loaded pre-ban 40 round mags.

As of now in my research I've come across both the FN Five-Seven and the HK UCP. These pistols seem tailor made for my exact writing purposes based on my reading of their capabilities so far. Is this an accurate judgment? If so, then the weapons of the gun runners are my next question.

Primarily I would like to shy away from the usual Russian and Israeli firearms used by gangsters for my exotic gunrunners. I've found the Singaporean weapons to be interesting, as well as the latest generation firearms from Fabrique Nationale like the FN 2000. Seeing as these are all military weapons, how vast a conspiracy would I need to create to properly equip a small organiation of criminals and mercenaries with the latest military equipment from these divergent sources?

I'm also curious as to the small arms qualities of the XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon System. Not just its qualities as a simple grenade launcher, but as a varied munitions launcher and material delivery system.

I am also curious as to the material density, hardness, and flexibility required to resist the safe firing of a 9mm parabellum round. The concept of an actual gun capable of passing through airport scanning intrigues me, and it seems to me that you would have to build the entire assembly from an exotic polymer or ceramic as well as the bullets. What interests me is whether or not the construction of such a weapon is actually possible considering the fact that no one seems to have done it yet, and I really can't be the first person to come up with the idea along these lines.

I would avoid having them use the H&K UCP, because it's not in production yet (to the best of my knowledge).

I don't think you'd need much of a "conspiracy" at all. The FN Five-Seven and semi-automatic versions of the F2000 rifle and P90 submachine gun can be purchased at gun stores in the U.S. (the FS2000s and PS90s could possibly be converted to full-auto, assuming your gunrunners had well-trained armorers able to do the conversion work for them).

There are already drug cartels in Mexico whose gunmen have acquired these weapons by having cousins or girlfriends in Texas buy them and then smuggle them across the border. When I was an intern at Stratfor, in fact, I did some research on this as part of an article that was published in one of the Mexico security briefs.

I'm willing to place this in the future a few years, I was already planning on including the XM25.

But what about the availability of the Singaporean weapons? And for clarities sake, the assassin and the gang of gunrunners of mercenaries are two separate groups. The assassin is not someone I'm worried about explaining getting firearms to, but I want to be realistic about how I put the weapons in the hands of the syndicate.

Fair enough, although personally, I'm of the opinion that the 4.6x30mm is basically shit compared to the 5.7x28mm used by FN's weapons. Part of the reason the UCP is so far behind schedule is because of the relatively disappointing reception that the MP7 has received, and the reason for that is because many LE departments think the 4.6x30 is a joke.

I'm also doubtful the XM25 will ever go into production, let alone be adopted. Certainly not in a few years. H&K has a terrible track record when it comes to U.S. military contracts. Chances are, the XM25 is going to go the way of nearly every weapon that H&K has submitted to the DoD for testing...to the grave.

Which ones do you mean specifically? I'm guessing the SAR-21 and Ultimax machine gun? Well, the simplest answer is...there are always corrupt military and law enforcement officers willing to line their pockets by selling weaponry. Especially in an authoritarian country like Singapore.

Then there's the fact that Singapore has sold small arms to governments that are currently engaged in wars or which would not be likely to do a good job accounting for weapons. For instance, the Sri Lankan Army is currently engaged in a war with the rebel Tamil Tiger (LTTE) organization, though they seem to be close to winning. The SLA's special forces use Singaporean weapons in minor numbers, including the SAR-21 and Ultimax.

If I were writing your book, I would say it's possible that the LTTE could have captured some of these weapons from the SLA, and kept them in their arms caches. The fact that the Sri Lankan Civil War is drawing to a close (as we speak) means that a few years in the future, the LTTE could be demobilizing and participating in a peace process to gain legitimacy as a political party in Sri Lanka. Seeing as the organization has 10,000+ fighters, that's a lot of weaponry they'd have left over. So conceivably, certain Tigers might sell some of the LTTE's weapons stocks on the black market. Including the SAR-21s and Ultimax LMGs.

But whatever. I'm not a novelist.

Well this thread has been very helpful so far but I have two further questions.

I am well aware that a "stealth" pistol or firearm, meaning one that can evade metal detectors, does not exist. Even if you were to make a fire arm entirely out of plastics, the bullets would show up. And even those firearms made of plastics in existence are so dense that they do show up on image scanners. However, my I wonder if an extremely hard ceramic could be used not just for the body and mechanics of the gun, but also for the bullets. However this raises a few questions. Would standard gunpowder show up on these scans, would a useful ceramic or light but sturdy plastic show up on these scans, and would it be possible to make a bullet of any use?

My second question is related to the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth. I like it as a concealable weapon, but for my purposes it would be less useful without a silencer. However I can not determine if a silencer for the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth exists or if it would be appropriate considering the nature of the gun. If the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth is not appropriate for a silencer, then I would be interested in a similar handgun, not necessarily chambered in 9mm, that would be appropriate for a silencer and would be easily concealed.

Walther ppk or sig p230/232

Perhaps a Glock 26? If you put a G19 barrel on it and use a threading drill, you could adapt it for a suppressor I suppose. Not super exotic, but still a decent pocket gun none-the-less. A good suppressor adds 3-4" to the barrel though, so I'd assume the person would have to thread it on after drawing it?

I was writing a screenplay at one point (which I haven't worked on in awhile, I think I'm going to start over) and I wanted one of the killers to use a Shansi Type 17 with a barrel adapted for a suppressor. Wierd guns like that fascinate me and I like seeing something rare on the screen.

Personally I don't like the PPK pistols because I got some serious slide bite the last time I shot one. I figure a P230/232 would do the same so I'd avoid both myself.

I love c96 style guns.
I like out of the ordinary, different guns.
Thats why i have no affetcion for glocks, not all that different, and boring
If i wrote a script the characters would carry signature weapons to fit their personality

Yeah, Glocks are kind of boring but I still like them.

Signature weapons make a movie great. Except in Wanted. For some reason I didn't give a rat's ass that everyone had their cool guns. Except Fox's 1911.

If I wrote a ton of stories, my main character would always use a 1911. It's like a sickness for me, nothing looks right other than a 1911. Whether it is customized or something else, they always are first choice for story characters.

One idea I had for a story was a guy who was given two blessed M1911A1s (don't want to get religous too much though, so mayeb some african witch doctor blessed them) but they never run out of ammo, jam, over heat or break. Of course they would be WWII era Colts, because those are the iconic 1911s IMO.

I figured if the story actually made it to become a movie, I would use normal M1911A1s for loading and non-firing scenes, but use Colt slides on modified Para-Ordnance frames so they could fire more rounds at a time without quick cuts. I'd have to pick a big handed protagonist actor so the wide grips could be well hidden though.

What do you guys think?

Last man standing made me lagh with those 1911s, yo really don't want "blessed 1911s" Reloads also look cool, remember. The Colt/Para cross sounds cool though,

Wanted was a truly awful movie, BTW.

Gunmaster, if you were a movie character, what would you be armed with?

I think a Dan Wesson Valor with a sp-101 .327 as backup would be mine, the Dan Wesson loaded with good 8 round mags like Wilson combat. The .327 is good since it delivers more punch than 38 and less recoil in a small frame than .357 mag, which is qite brutal.

Wanted... awful?
I thought it was stupid as all get out, but funny to watch.
It's the kind of movie where you remove your brain for a few hours, and revel in the absurdity.

Im waiting for when the first casualty from that stupid bullet bending stunt happens

"dont worry amn, i can bend the bullet"

I really dont want to be the officer responding to that some day

Of course I'd use a custom 1911 (customized as I see fit). I'm a sucker for the 1911s. I'd trust one with my life, so as a character I'd trust it two-fold. In my opinion a character has more depth when he either carries a gun of sentimental value or is custom built. That's why I loved the Punisher so much.

I had another movie idea that's a little less far fetched. A cop upsets a gang and in return they murder his pregnant girlfriend so he resigns and goes out to kill them all. It's a little cliche but I had a lot of interesting ideas and scenes for it. (one was a guy checking a sliding mail slot to see a .45 muzzle and a sudden flash from the protaganist).

I have a question, they say the .327 Federal Magnum allows you to fire 6 shots instead of 5 in a Ruger SP101. Why can't you load six .357 mags in an SP101, is the pressure build up too great or something?

Wow, I'm random!

Small frame, they can't make the cylinder hold 6, at least not with walls thick enough for the 357.

I like revolvers a lot, there needs to be at least one. Theres the backup sp101, and possibley a 627PC 5'' on the bedstand?
Then theres the collection of firearms said character will ahve built up, cstomized to them.

No, what I mean is they say even with six chambers, you can't load more than 5, and I was wondering why this is.

People are stupid. Its just as safe as any DA revolver. Ive heard people say you can't carry chambered. Mos people are just not up on their gns. If yo have a 327, load it pp, all six.

"(one was a guy checking a sliding mail slot to see a .45 muzzle and a sudden flash from the protaganist)."

HELL.
YES.
Bad Guy:"Did I get any mail today?"
BLAM
Protagonist: ".50 Action EXPRESS MAIL. PS: FUCK YOU!"

a 45 that shoots 50, woah!

Yeah, you've got a bit of a continuity error.

By the time I'd get to make this movie, the story concept would be played BEYOND death. (I just watched Taken btw, so I feel like my story has no originallity now, even though the stories are still different.)

I figured the protaganist would knock on the door, the guard would go "Who is it?!" and then he'd knock again. He'd open the sliding mail slot to look and see and BLAM! a big flash as a .45 goes through his eye. Then... then I have to figure out how he opens the damn door and starts the firefight. Crap.

If it has a sliding slot, it would be steel, so kicking it down wouldn't work. I guess he could shoot the lock but the action would kind of slow down after that.

Gunmaster, I really hope you become a director, we'd have cool (and realistic) gunfights.

I'd push for cameos too! A down-to-earth director gets to point himselg out in the DVD commentary. :D Plus I'd get to show off my gun handling skills without showing what a crappy actor I am :P.

Id love to be in a movie sometime, doubt it will happen in a LE career, the most i can hope for is newscasters interviewing me after some incident.

I've actually had a couple of movie cameos. I dunno if anyone noticed, but on the "Kiss The Girls" page in the discussion section, I mentioned that I was in that movie. And I was actually on-set with Morgan Freeman, too.

You have a pic of the scene with you in it?