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Rockwolf66 02-22-2013 01:43 AM

Firearms sales in Canada
 
I've been doing a bit of research about what is avalable firearms wise in Canada.

Suprisingly enough 10.5" barreled Norinco M4geries were readily avalable. I'm not sure but it seems that when Firearms sales in the US have spiked there has been alot of the more social firearms dissapearing from Canadia gun shops as well.

While I can see Daniels Defence M4s not being Avalable... Those aformentioned Norincos are out of stock too. Unfortunatly when i try to find out the actual sales rate to see if it's just a side effect of US firearms buying or if Canadians are stocking up too I run into a snag. I can't find any information on Canadas Firearms Sales Rate anywhere. I would like to know how American Buying habbits are affecting our northern Neighbor.

Nyles 02-24-2013 10:17 PM

It's a side effect of US buying. Ultimately most Canadian guns originate in the US, so while stores and distributors are well stocked at the moment as soon as they run out of what they have on hand at the moment things will get bad up here too. We're already out of 9mm pistols where I work and running low on small pistol and small rifle primers, and what I've been hearing from suppliers is that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

The exception to this will be stuff thats not sold in the US, like Norinco. But if it gets to the point where that's all that's available, it'll become hard to get by default.

Rockwolf66 02-24-2013 10:47 PM

Thanks Nyles,

Since I write fiction for fun, play Roleplaying games and Debate with terminally stupid progressives I do alot of research. With Canada it's interesting that you guys don't have laws on barrel lenght and just overall lenght.

Then again the Stupidity of ones own laws I have witnessed is scary. Case in point the following.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Progressive
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

So when we have Leftist Politicians and activists saying that they want to ban law abiding Civilians the use of arms for nearly half a century we are the delusional ones? We have mountains of Evidence that says otherwise. Just keep pokeing that bear with the pointy stick. Looking at Canada they admit that firearms registration has been a collosal waste of time and money. In Australia their bun bans in the wake of Port Arthur has had no affect on crime, in fact some catigories of crime that had been dropping started to raise again after the ban. With England since Gun control didn't help with Crime they have turned to Knife control. We in the United States who are for the preservation of individual rights have watched what has happened in other countires and have listened to what the stated intent of our home grown leftists are. The intent is to take our individual freedoms and give us neither safety nore security.

Whooah there cowboy. Please don't include Canada in your rant if you can't do it without context or complete information.
Canada's "Long Gun" Registry (yes, that's what they called it) was set up to track (but not ban) long guns....meaning hunting rifles. And yes, it is a waste of time. It's a waste of time (and not a victory for your point of view) because all the other stuff is banned already. Pop Quiz: What's the most common firearm used while committing a crime in the United States? A .38 Special. Banned. Handguns? Banned. "Assault Weapons (whatever those are)? Banned. Extended magazines, armour piercing rounds and military grade hardware? Banned, Banned, Banned. The long and short of it is that for the most part, Canada's gun laws tend to get rid of the hardware that's part of the problem while keeping the "pioneering sportsman" mythos that a lot of people like to put out there to justify the right to bear arms. Do people still get shot in Canada? On occasion. This is lower than "one every x minutes" or whatever the current American rate is. Canada is safer.

Now the other countries you listed may very well be lawless societies hanging over the precipice of chaos without the noble everyman packing heat at his hip to keep it in check. But not Canada my friend. North lies an example that works if fully committed to and not merely half-assed to appeal to most.

My point is that I have been loosely keeping track of firearms laws and developments internationally and With Canada I was seeing retailers stocking things that are federally restricted for Americans just three months ago. Now all of those rifles are "Out of Stock". I was wondering the root causes.

MoviePropMaster2008 02-26-2013 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 (Post 38113)
My point is that I have been loosely keeping track of firearms laws and developments internationally and With Canada I was seeing retailers stocking things that are federally restricted for Americans just three months ago. Now all of those rifles are "Out of Stock". I was wondering the root causes.

Whoa there little doggie. What firearms are federally restricted in the U.S. that is available over the counter in Canada? Please elaborate. I know we don't import anything Norinco because they were caught imported full auto AKs in the 2000s purportedly to sell to gangs and US Customs nailed them. But what else? You have me intrigued.

Nyles 02-26-2013 05:27 AM

Well, we actually DO have laws with regard to barrel length. They're just alot more complicated than yours. Our laws in general are complicated, actually.

We have firearms liscensing in Canada, to own or purchase a firearm or ammunition you need a PAL, a Possession and Acquisition Liscense. There is such a thing as a Possession Only Liscense, which allowed you to keep the firearms you owned before the current laws came into effect, but not buy new ones. They've been trying to phase out the POL for years, but there's still some out there. There are 4 basic classes of firearm in Canada, Non-Restricted, Restricted, Prohibited and Antique. There used to be a registry for all firearms, but that was repealed last year so now only Restricted and Prohibited guns are registered.

Non-Restricted firearms are anything that doesn't fall into the other classes, which means most basic manually operated rifles and shotguns, and most hunting semi-autos. You just need the basic PAL for them. One thing you might find interesting is that any air rifle over 500 FPS or post-1898 muzzle-loader is a non-restricted firearm over here. Non resticted guns have to be stored and transported unloaded, either in a locked container OR with a trigger lock.

Restricted firearms are large handguns, AR-15s (specifically named in the law), manually operated centerfires which can be fired when their overall length is under 26", and semi-auto centerfires with a barrel under 19". This last one was written specifically to make the M1 Carbine restricted as they were the weapon of choice for the Hell's Angels during the Montreal biker wars in the 90s. Restricted guns can only be shot at a range, and require an ATT (Authorisation To Transport) when you want to take them out of the house. Most provinces will give you a long term ATT to take them from your house to the range and back, with a one-time ATT to move it anywhere else. They have to be stored unloaded, in a locked container, AND trigger locked. These require a restricted class PAL, which anyone who passes the background check can get.

Prohibited is complicated. There are actually 6 classes of Prohibited firearm. The largest one is handguns with a barrel under 4.2" or in .25 or .32 caliber. Also full autos, full autos converted to semi-autos, certain guns designated as Prohibited (AKs, FALs, basically anything available in 1995 that looked scary), sawed off rifles or shotguns with an overall length under 26" or barrel length under 19" (but if they were manufactured that way by the factory they're restricted and non-restricted, respectively.... I don't know why). You can only own a Prohibited firearm if you've had once since that class of firearm was prohibited (1978 for FA, 1997 for everything else). Prohibs cannot be imported. ATTs are only issued to shoot Prohibited handguns, Prohibited long guns cannot be shot. Storage and transport is as per Restricted.

Antiques are exempt from liscensing and registration (including antique handguns), but have to be stored as if they were non-restricted firearms. Antique rifles are any rimfire other than .22 or single-shot centerfire larger that .32 caliber, made before 1898. Antique handguns are any ( including short-barrelled and .32s) made before 1898 that don't shoot a commonly commercially available caliber. Antique shotguns are anything pre-1898 that's not centerfire. Any flintlock rifle or shotgun, regardless of age, is an antique, but post 1898 flintlock handguns are still Restricted.

Supressors are completely illegal. Armor piercing ammo is illegal. Carrying a handgun is illegal (well, for all intents and purposes anyways). Handguns have a maximum magazine capacity of 10 rounds. Centerfire semi-auto rifles and shotguns have a maximum magazine capacity of 5 rounds. Higher capacity magazines have to be pinned so they comply - there are very limited exceptions to this, for rifles impossible to pin (M1 Garand) or for very rare historically significant magazines (Luger snail drum). No magazine capacity restriction on rimfire rifles or manually operated centerfires. Unlike the US, no upper limit on caliber - I have a 14.5mm anti-tank rifle, and there are even 20mms out there, and they're just Non-Restricted Firearms. We also don't have that only shipping between FFLs foolishness - firearms can be shipped from individual to individual, no problem. Canada Post doesn't accept ammo so it has to be couriered, but as long as they're sent signature required, no issue with guns.

That's the Cliffe's Notes version. If anyone is still interested, I'm alot more well-versed in ours laws than most and can probably answer any questions you can think to ask.

Rockwolf66 02-26-2013 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 (Post 38118)
Whoa there little doggie. What firearms are federally restricted in the U.S. that is available over the counter in Canada? Please elaborate. I know we don't import anything Norinco because they were caught imported full auto AKs in the 2000s purportedly to sell to gangs and US Customs nailed them. But what else? You have me intrigued.

As Nyles Pointed out you can get Rifles and Shotguns with barrels that are as low as Eight and a half inches or rifles with Seven and a half inches

I know some of it is restricted but other firearms that would fall under the NFA isn't restricted. Basically there is stuff in Canada that falls under the NFA that the Canadians have somehow sensibly ruled to be an ordinary firearm.

Nyles 02-26-2013 05:49 AM

In those examples the Grizzly is non-restricted (manually operated, overall length over 26") and the 858 is restricted (centerfire semi-auto, barrel under 19"). That said I sell 858s with 19" barrels at work that are non-restricted.

MoviePropMaster2008 02-26-2013 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 38123)
In those examples the Grizzly is non-restricted (manually operated, overall length over 26") and the 858 is restricted (centerfire semi-auto, barrel under 19"). That said I sell 858s with 19" barrels at work that are non-restricted.

Well in the U.S. it's 16" or less for rifles and 18" or less for shotguns, so a 19" barreled anything is legal in the US. I am very intrigued by the short barreled rifles and shotguns.

Like you said. We can get a ton of stuff you can't. But at least Canada had the sense to not freak out over barrel length in some instances. Like a 14" barrel on an M4 is far deadlier than a 16" barreled rifle. Fah!

But then I heard the Crossbow Pistols are banned in Canada. (is that true?) They aren't here, even in California. :D

commando552 02-26-2013 11:15 AM

Does anyone know the reason why the variants of the H&K SL8 that are sold in the US has a single stack only magazine well whilst the ones available in Canada and Europe are normal double stack? I haven't seen this done by any other manufacturer or rifles, it seems odd to me that it is just the SL8. Is this due to a US law, or an odd H&K choice.

SPEMack618 02-26-2013 04:21 PM

So no provision to conceal carry at all?

How about open carry while hunting or hiking?

Anything similar to the Castle Law?

MoviePropMaster2008 02-26-2013 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando552 (Post 38127)
Does anyone know the reason why the variants of the H&K SL8 that are sold in the US has a single stack only magazine well whilst the ones available in Canada and Europe are normal double stack? I haven't seen this done by any other manufacturer or rifles, it seems odd to me that it is just the SL8. Is this due to a US law, or an odd H&K choice.

Nope. It was just ATF and US Customs being jerks. Remember, they don't need a reason to deny import (technically they do but in the real world they do as they please). The Single stack mag was HK's way of appeasing the ATF by saying 'See? Even the regular double stack assault rifle magazines won't fit here. It's a SPORTING rifle!'. Pure politics, but nothing technically that's in any law or regulation.

Nyles 02-27-2013 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPEMack618 (Post 38129)
So no provision to conceal carry at all?

How about open carry while hunting or hiking?

Anything similar to the Castle Law?

No concealed carry at all. Off-duty police officers can carry their issued firearm in civillian clothes, but they CANNOT carry a personal firearm. The gun laws apply to everyone equally.

There is such a thing as bush carry of handguns for prospectors or trappers who are working in remote areas and carry enough equipment that a rifle or shotgun is impractical. What you have to understand here is that doesn't apply to most people. It's almost exclusively people working in truly remote areas in the North - equivlent to being in a remote area in Alaska, not your local woods. That said, for hikers and campers on crown (publically owned) land in rural areas where it's legal to discharge a firearm, it's not uncommon to carry a shotgun or rifle. In fact I sell alot of breakdown .22 rifles and pistol grip shotguns for that.

Nothing like Castle Law. If you shoot someone in your home, you're going to have to prove it was literally a life or death situation, and that you had the firearm stored legally when they entered your home. Most of them time, criminal charges will be laid. Self-defense against other people is not a legal reason for owning a firearm in Canada. The only legal reason to own a gun for self defense in this country is for large 4-legged animals in rural areas, and that means a long gun.

You really have to understand that there's a very different gun culture here than in the States. In the States, it seems to me that most people own a gun for self defense, and it's legally and socially acceptable to shoot someone if you're threatened. Here, guns are for hunting and target shooting. There's a growning tactical / self defense market here (which I attribute to the American influence), but shooting someone here is neither legally nor socially acceptable.

I'm a product of that culture myself - I'm a soldier, I've been overseas, I've seen people die, but nothing I own is worth killing someone over. If they want my TV, they can have it. I keep my guns trigger locked, in safes, in a separate room, with the ammo in locked in separate cabinets. If someone breaks into my house, I'm more likely to call the cops than get a gun. Even walking around downtown late at night, I've never felt like I needed to be carrying a gun. If it was legal to carry a gun or keep one in the home for self-defense, I might do it, but most of the time I probably wouldn't. Maybe that'll come back to bite me in the ass someday, but I'm honestly not upset that I can't. Frankly, working in a gun shop, talking to lots of gun owners, tends to make you think it's not a bad thing that most people don't have immediate access to firearms.

Nyles 02-27-2013 05:23 AM

I feel like I should clarify alot of what I just said. I'm not condemning the US, or US gun owners. We have a different gun culture, because we have a different culture. We have substantially different demographics, less violent crime (which I think has more to do with differences in our drug laws than our gun laws), and a tenth the population that the US. I probably have less need to own a gun for self defense than most Americans, and I'm not saying that Canadian solutions would work in the States any more than American ones would work up here. I do, however, find the contrast very interesting.

SPEMack618 02-28-2013 12:55 AM

Hmm, interesting Nyles. Thanks for the response. So do y'all have a hunting culture?

And I can understand what you said about working in a gunshop. Good points all around.

Nyles 02-28-2013 08:37 PM

It's like a said to a coworker the other day - "You know, even though I'd never buy one, I do like tactical guns.... I just really hate the guys we sell them to."

And we definitely have a hunting culture. It's changing, as I mentionned, but the majority of people I sell guns to don't even HAVE a restricted class liscense. And it's not because they're any harder to get.

k9870 02-28-2013 10:10 PM

Im more into tactical stuff, as i find it more practical also. Not every acessory is useless. Most help with one thing or another.

I wont go tactical on a .22 though, like those more classic, and prefer my shotguns with a traditional style stock becaue they point better and more naturally but i like synthetic, extended tubes, ghost rings, etc.

MoviePropMaster2008 02-28-2013 11:14 PM

Nyles, my only PROBLEM with what you said is that you assume that Americans will kill over 'stuff' (TVs, bicycles, cars.) That's not true. Only in a few states are we allowed to use deadly force to protect property. ALL places (even the people's republic of Kalifornia) have codified that you can use deadly force to protect human life, whether against a human attacker or animal.

So even if it's illegal to walk around with a loaded gun on the street - the law here (CA) states that if you see an axe murderer about to execute someone in the street, you CAN lock, load and SHOOT him.

So are you telling me that to protect human life is NOT an acceptable usage of a firearm in Canada?

That's the difference, and I'm not surprised that CANADIANS have that warped view of Americans. The Media has constantly put out a drumbeat that Americans are 'cowboys' who will shoot anything that moves for any stupid reason.

SPEMack618 03-01-2013 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k9870 (Post 38164)
Im more into tactical stuff, as i find it more practical also. Not every acessory is useless. Most help with one thing or another.

I've always summed up my view on tactical firearms with the mantra of "ugly firearms for ugly things."

Nyles 03-02-2013 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 (Post 38165)
Nyles, my only PROBLEM with what you said is that you assume that Americans will kill over 'stuff' (TVs, bicycles, cars.) That's not true. Only in a few states are we allowed to use deadly force to protect property. ALL places (even the people's republic of Kalifornia) have codified that you can use deadly force to protect human life, whether against a human attacker or animal.

So even if it's illegal to walk around with a loaded gun on the street - the law here (CA) states that if you see an axe murderer about to execute someone in the street, you CAN lock, load and SHOOT him.

So are you telling me that to protect human life is NOT an acceptable usage of a firearm in Canada?

That's the difference, and I'm not surprised that CANADIANS have that warped view of Americans. The Media has constantly put out a drumbeat that Americans are 'cowboys' who will shoot anything that moves for any stupid reason.

Pretty much, yeah. There was a fellow out in Ontario who was charged with unsafe storage, careless use of a firearm and brandishing a firearm after shooting at someone who was in the process of firebombing his house. The careless use and brandishing charges were dismissed, and he ended up being acquitted of careless storage, but the Crown alleged he couldn't have accessed the firearm that quickly if it was stored properly. Point being, while TECHNICALLY our laws allow for self defense, in practice you're going to get charged with something.

And I guess it's absolutely fair to say I might have a biased view of Americans. I was under the impression that Castle doctrine or stand your ground meant you were legally able to shoot someone breaking into your house, whether or not they were actively threatening your life. I stand corrected.

S&Wshooter 03-02-2013 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyles (Post 38175)
And I guess it's absolutely fair to say I might have a biased view of Americans. I was under the impression that Castle doctrine or stand your ground meant you were legally able to shoot someone breaking into your house, whether or not they were actively threatening your life. I stand corrected.

Well if they are forcing their way in, I know that under Texas' Castle Doctrine it would be within my legal right to use force. Personally, I would try to warn them that I'd use force if they didn't leave before I actually did anything, but I don't have to.


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