10mm Auto: (Un)fairly ignored?
 

Hi,

I've heard a lot about this "cartridge that was too hot for the FBI," and from what I can gather the 10x25mm cartridge was supposed to definitively settle the "9x19mm or .45 ACP?" question for pistols and SMGs.

On paper it seems quite nice. In short, it has better magazine capacity than the .45 ACP, with more velocity, range, and kinetic energy in most loadings than both the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP cartridges. I hear that in longer-barrelled firearms, like the MP5/10 or the rare custom-made pistol-caliber carbine, the effective range is increased to 270 metres--not bad for a pistol cartridge.

The chief complaints I've seen were that it had too much recoil for most shooters (which brought about the .40 S&W), the rarity and higher cost of the ammunition, and the lack of guns chambered for it. While I'll certainly admit that some shooters value their comfort when firing their weapons, I still think enough practice for the right professional shooters could tame the cartridge's recoil and make use of its power more effectively (furthermore, in a life-or-death situation, you don't care about whether your ammunition's "comfortable" to shoot--just about whether it can reliably and accurately land on target). The lack of firearms and the expense of the ammunition is really a commercial question, not a ballistic one, but a few manufacturers have stepped up to the plate for this unsung cartridge. Still, it seems that on this wiki guns like the Glock 20, the Colt Delta Elite, or the Star Megastar for 10x25mm get next to no love.

I would certainly like to see more 10x25mm firearms in games, because I think it'd be nice to see a pistol or SMG-class weapon with surprisingly high stopping power and range that is NOT a Desert Eagle or PDW. I can't help but wonder just how much potential is going to waste with this cartridge class--could this have been the cartridge the OHWS program could have used instead for better range and stopping power? Could the MP5/10 be that much more useful over its less-powerful cousins? Could you turn this into a PDW round, like how the Russians turned the 9x19mm cartridge into a PDW round with their 7N31 loading?

I'd like to hear some relevant info about all this. It certainly sounds like a cartridge type that could definitely be useful for SWAT-type police teams or the like.

EDIT: Those who want to see a nice discussion forum for this underappreciated cartridge, including information on which guns use it and classifieds with ads on the right handguns and accessories to buy them, can go here:

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/10m...rums-f187.html

EDIT: Another advocacy article for this cartridge can be found here. I'd like to know how much of it is believable:

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

I've been obsessed with 10mm since Rainbow Six Rogue Spear had MP5's in 10mm. :D
I like the sound of the round too, but mostly just because it's unique.
Maybe the problem is that the round tries to fill a hole that doesn't exist, like the .45 GAP(as mentioned on the 9v45 thread).

Well, the problem is the federal girly men couldnt take recoil so they made a 10mm "fbi load" with reduced recoil. It was a basically a long cased 40, somebody was like "hey couldnt we make the cartridge shorter? and 40 s&w was made, became wildly popular, and 10mm auto was almost completely ignored, but recently made some comebacks. Many 1911s, the glock 20/29, and even the bren 10s coming back

Well, there are two other issued with the 10mm. It's a long cartidge, which means only large-frame guns can be chambered in it - it's like a .45 ACP vs 9mm Glock, the .45 model is beefier. The .40 can be chambered in a standard size 9mm frame, which in turn make the pistol lighter (this is not a meaningless factor when it's carried all day) and easier for most shooters to handle.

The other, of course, is that yes you can be trained to use a heavier-recoiling gun, but the lighter one will take less training, and therefore less time and money. Don't forget there's no such thing as a professional pistol shooter - cops / soldier / federal agents have better things spend their training time and budget on than handgun shooting.

The best use for 10mm ive heard is a trail gun. Some people dont shoot revolvers well, and a 10mm delivers near .357 power in an auto.

"Near .357 Magnum power"? I've heard that under maximally loaded conditions the 10mm Auto can actually exceed that venerable cartridge's capabilities. :D Sounds like the sort of stuff you would definitely pack into a law enforcement SMG for maximum range and cover penetration, but I don't see more reports of LE agencies or SWAT-type organizations using it. I'd definitely want something like this for officers on high-risk assignments so they can take down the perps more quickly and with less overall danger to the LEOs.

And yes, at least one special operations unit uses a 10x25mm handgun (the Glock 20) as a "trail weapon," since they're a dogsled patrol unit from Denmark that patrols Greenland. They need something like that to confront polar bears, since animals like them simply laugh off 9x19mm rounds. You can read about them here--just search for "Sirius":

http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Denmark/

I'd still like to know whether 10x25mm SMGs would be a more economical and effective choice for a law enforcement unit to use than compact assault rifles/PDWs, and if the 10x25mm round can actually be upgraded to PDW-levels of penetration.

Again, it's a matter of economics. Police departments buy firearms and ammunition en masse most of the time and if they don't have a handgun chambered in 10mm, why would they get a submachinegun or carbine chambered for that round? They'd rather have a gun that is either a full sized rifle (AR-15 of some sort), a 12 gauge shotgun, or if they have to have a pistol caliber carbine, a 9 or .40 to match their sidearm so if things get heated, they can change the bullets out. This is why the Cx4 is becoming so popular as a lot of PDs carry Beretta 92 or 96 pistols and they can just buy the same pistol mags for their carbine.

Even in cases where individual officers have to by their own weapons, they still won't opt for a 10mm carbine or submachineguns because the ammunition is highly priced and not very common, and they have to pay out of pocket for that.

I seriously doubt that 10mm could be considered a PDW cartridge no matter how much engineering is done. Armor piercing rounds could be made but that will just raise the cost of ammunition, and despite the amount of damage it can do or it's range, it still pales in comparison to an actual rifle. That being said, if a cop has to choose between an MP5 that has been engineered away from it's original design to take a more powerful handgun cartridge which may or may not have good penetrative powers against soft targets or body armor, and an AR-15 rifle in a more economical, 5.56 caliber round which can penetrate body armor without question (with AP rounds) with a design that was built to take the cartirdge, and is incredibly common and easy to learn to operate. Oh yeah, it's got far more range and less recoil too.

10mm is, has been, and will remain a low key, cool guy cartridge that only real hardcore gun enthusiasts know about or truly admire, it's not meant for large scale law enforcement or military purposes. If it was, it wouldn't have flopped when it was introduced. That's not to say it isn't a good round, though.

Really? because I have only seen one police officer, out of all the different cops in all the different states I have been to, carry a model 92

People thought the m92 was cool since its the military pistol, then they noticed its quite a bit of hardware for a small caliber. Its a chunky brick, and would be a bitch to carry off duty.

Personally, the tang puts a pressure point against the knucle on my thumb and the safety is in a poor spot (not that id use it on a da/sa, but some might) and its a bit thick, manageable but not confortable. An overrate pistol, IMHO. Now if i was in LA and was given the choice of m92fs or GLock 22 (the most ovverrated service pistol ever) id take the beretta, but then again i could always find a 4506.

The 4506 is one heavy motherfucker. If I was LAPD, I'd carry a Beretta 8045 or a Kimber 1911 (if they'd let me), because the 4506 is very wide and very heavy. It's fun to shoot though.

The Cougars are kinda silly in my opinion. They are fairly funny looking and their recoil springs are very tough. As far as Beretta 92s/96s being popular police guns, just because you don't see them carried by your local police, doesn't mean that the dozens, or hundreds of police organizations across the U.S. Don't. I talked to a few cops who carry Beretta 96s.

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, you are derailing the topic of this thread, but instead of bad jokes, with the same opinions you vocalize so often. Please stay on topic.

I'm just saying that the 92 isn't as common as you think. Now, to bring this thread back on topic, can 10mm seriously get up to .357 magnum levels of power? If that's true, I may just start paying some attention to 10mm's

Im sure a 1911 would weigh the same as a 4506, and I prefer DA/Sa to SAO, and even if i did carry a 1911, it would not be a kimber.

The 10mm may have practical uses, but law enforcement and military are not among them. I don't fault the FBI for backtracking on it. It has nothing to do with the feds being "girly" men; it's because 10mm is a fairly difficult cartridge to shoot.

The Beretta 92/96 series is definitely not a popular police gun. It may have been popular 15-20 years ago (I'm old enough to remember when our State Troopers and Highway Patrol used to carry them), but not anymore. Today, it's considered an outdated design by most law enforcement agencies, even though it's still the "default" pistol of cops and bad guys in Hollywood.

Right now, Glocks account for 65% of the U.S. law enforcement market, while SIG-Sauers account for about 30%. S&W, Beretta, and H&K are all fighting over the remaining 5% or so. That's not my opinion; it's fact. So statistically, Berettas can't really be "popular".

Around my area, I've encountered several cops from the surrounding townships since I live in North West Indiana. Most of the guns I see are mainly Glocks, Sigs, and a few S&W 4505s. There was one detective with a USP. A few in East Chicago have Beretta 96s, but just a few because they are being phased out for Glocks and SIGs. My hometown police department uses SIG P229s

Hm, I've always wanted to go backpacking in Alaska, perhaps a 10mm would be a good anti-bear-piece.

Capacity beats a .357 wheel gun.

That's a pretty powerful statistic. I don't doubt it entirely but where did you acquire that information?

Also, average 10mm loads can equal average to high powered .357 Magnum loads. I consider them more or less equal in power.

I'm also not a hunter nor do I understand what is effective or not against whatever game, but I don't think 10mm is adequate for killing bears.

A pistol is not really your primary weapon in hunting. That's what shotguns and rifles are for, but merely a backup weapon. A bear comes running towards you, you might be able to get one shot off your rifle, if it's a bolt action before it is in your face. Rather than running, you best draw your sidearm and empty it as fast as you can pull the trigger. The shear amount of lead coming into the bear, especially at close range, would put it down. Contrary to what some might say that a little pistol would have no effect on a bear, it's just fur and skin. A bear doesn't have plated armor. Bullets of most typical caliber in handguns will hurt and kill bears if they are in the effective range. They'd at least stop charging, because you are giving them pain.

Yeah my 4505 weighs 2 lbs 15 oz and my 1911 2 lbs 12.4 oz. They're pretty much the same size. The 4505 has a little bit of extra width on the slide. I'm not sure if anything has been done to mine, but the DA trigger is fairly nice. Especially compared to my Beretta's DA trigger


On the Beretta 92/96 still being carried by the police. Our police and sheriff departments carried them for about 10 to 15 years. In the past year or two, I've started to see Glocks on their hips. The Beretta's I'm pretty sure were 9mm, I don't know about the Glocks. Some of our State Troopers carried Beretta's also.

10mm will have to be hand loaded to exceed .357 mag, most factory ammo is somewhat downsized, and when yo play with crazy ass reloads you need to test pistol function, change springs, etc.
Ive seen when the smith and wesson 10mm/40 smith revovler has been loaded to rediculous levels and exceeds most .357s.
So 10 mil will be near a .357 and has good penetration for bear defense, but theres a lot of factors to look into.

As for glocks, well, unconfortable grips (finger grooves narrower than my fingers) and weird grip angle, doesnt point naturally, and poor trigger, Police get them because there reliable enough (glock reliability is horribly inflated though, they can and will jam if treated bad.) and simple so less time is needed training. There also cheap for the budget types. Problem also is many are too light for the caliber, like the .40 smith versions. If i get a .40 i want it to weigh more than 22-23 ounces for recoil control. There hyped, overrated and not a good shooting gun.

You know, I'd put my life on a Glock. They aren't bad guns. All guns do jam if not treated properly. And I don't find the grip or the trigger to be much of a problem to me

All guns do jam, i just know too many glock fanboys who claim they cant. They are just that gun i could never like.

But I'd take a Springfield XD over the Glock. It feels better, the grip is based on the angle and grip of the 1911, the trigger feels better and better reliability.

Have you tried an xdm trigger? Ive heard they're more single action like.

Im still a metal gun (just feels solid and soaks up recoil.) fan. I love DA/SA SIGs. But if the xdm really is an improvement over the xd, as a range gn and at that pricepoint id be interested.

I plan to get an XDM. It's really good in my hands.

That doesn't sound right. 1911s on average weigh 37 ounces (2 pounds, 5 ounces, 1 pound=16 ounces) and a 4505/6 will weigh about the same, maybe a few ounces heavier. Were you weighing them loaded or on a 12 ounces=1 pound scale?

Also if it has a trigger that's better than a Berettas, more power to ya. 3rd gen Smith autos tend to have pretty bad triggers compared to Berettas and SIGs, but the 4505 might be an exception as it was an early model and wasn't mass produced (or at least not as much so as the 4506 or 5906).

I also read that the Novak sighted 4505 is the rarest configuration of the gun, so again you have another reason to be proud of it.

1911 weights are tricky. Many manufacturers post weight without mag, and things like a skeltonized hammer and thinner grips can strip off ounces quick. Then if you have higher profile combat sights, made of metal, well, they add a couple ounces. But this is a duty gun for open carry on a holster belt, i dont care if its 37 ounces or 43 ounces. Theres better places to save weight than a gun, a heavy gun shoots better. Start by switching a leather duty belt to nylon or other tough material and get a lighter flashlight, a maglights too heavy.

They were both loaded with 8 rounds in the mag. Unloaded my 1911 weighs 2 lbs 3.7 oz, the mag with 8 rounds weighs 8.6 oz by itself. Mines a Para, I think my dads Taurus weighs about an oz or two heavier.

How heavy was the hammer on your old S&W? Mine is fairly light which may be making the trigger pull better. I haven't shot it yet, I don't want to be getting light primer strikes.

I don't know the exact weight or the trigger pull weight but the hammer was fairly light. Since it's a double action trigger the hammer is only one part of the whole mechanism, so there are other things that contribute to a good or bad pull. I could thumb cock the hammer pretty easily and the single action wasn't bad, though it had a lot of play between pulling it and actually dropping the hammer. The Double Action was steady but pretty rough, worse than a double action revolver. It was still very shootable though.

Anyhow the overall weights loaded seem about right, I thought you were going with unloaded weights.

I have no clue what your talking about when you say S&W 3rd generation pistols don't have that great of triggers, as the pull on my 4506 is comparable to that of a 1911

Yeah I should have listed them as loaded so there wasn't any confusion. They were talking about carrying them, you're going to carry them loaded is the reason I weighed them that way. Also I was too lazy to take the mag out.

The DA pull on my S&W 586 is heavy, but consistent doesn't feel sloppy like on some semi-autos. In SA it beats all, give it a slight tap.



Also we have gotten off topic. About the 10mm.

The reason it was developed. In the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. Agent Jerry Dove fired a Winchester 9mm 115 grain Silvertip at Michael Platt. It went through his right arm and lung and stopped an inch from his heart. (Platt ended up killing Dove and Agent Grogan) Instead on developing a new cartridge they should have developed better loadings for the 9mm. Which they have nowadays. Also Platt was shot a total of 12 times and he wasn't on any drugs like the North Hollywood guys. The human body can take a lot. No matter what the round.

Yeah, it's kind of weird how the .40 came about. Since we can't shut our traps about S&W Autos, and this 10mm cartridge, I'd really like to get my hands on a 1006. Of the maybe 5 or 6 10mm designs, this (and a Delta Elite) are the ones I'd most likely buy. I wouldn't mind a Bren Ten either but I might as well look for the ever evasive .45 Luger.

@ S&W You can't fully compare a double action trigger to a 1911's trigger. Most single action pulls are about 4-5 pounds, and if they aren't it's either a lemon on the line or not a brand name gun. There are other things to look for like creep and of course the double action pull. I've held and handled examples of first, second, and third gen pistols (my 5906 was pretty early too, made in 1992) and there was a significant loss of quality in the trigger pull between the 1st/2nd gen and 3rd gens. It might be different for the 3rd generation .45 Caliber frames as I've never handled a 4506, but I don't see any reason the performance would be that much different from a 9mm frame, and if it isn't then it has the same mediocre trigger. I'm not saying it's an utterly terrible worthless trigger, but it's not as good as other options and certainly not a 1911's.

Have any of you by chance read "We Were Soldiers Once...And Young"? Some of the US soldiers take staggering amounts of rounds from the NVA's AK's without even slowing down

I think i'd be nice to have one also, along with maybe an EAA Witness (my friend's father has one in 9mm and he has nothing but good things to say about it) in 10mm to go along with it

VLTOR got the rights for the bren ten and introduced it at SHOT.

As for the miami shootout, they had defective ammo, the lot was bad and it failed to penetrate or expand as it should have. Tactics also sucked, none of them decided to use their body armor (they had just left it in trunk).

A NY state cop was wounded, fired a 9mm at a suspect, hit him in the arm, and then the suspect killed the cop before another officer downed him. The state police said this was proo 9mm lacked stopping power and switched to 45. Like a .45 in the arm will cut a man in half.

One of the agents, McNeal I think it was put his body armor on. It helped but not much, the armor they had was handgun rated. Platt was firing mostly .223 rounds. About the tactics, 3 agents were "SWAT" trained. Two of them were killed Dove and Grogan, maybe they put themselves in harms way more than the others? Also Platt and Matix were Army Ranger trained, Matix's weapon was far superior than the agents, he had a rifle. A few agents had shotguns but that was it.

Here is a clip from the TV movie they made about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM Also Platt (David Soul) is shown using a full auto AC556, he used a semi-auto Mini-14 in the actual shootout.

As far as owning a 10mm handgun, Delta Elite or Bren Ten (because of Miami Vice)

According to the wikipedia page, the agents using .357 revolvers had them loaded with .38 overpressure rounds.(this on the subject of the 1986 FBI shootout)

Would having them loaded with .357 have helped? Much?

So what does an overpressured .38 do exactly?

Overpressured meaning +P ammo. It gives the bullet more velocity and therefore stopping power. Since .38 is kind of a low powered round the +P loads make a difference. Though they don't so much next to a .357 Magnum.....

The probably chose to go .38 +P to reduce recoil and improve accuracy. In order to use a .357 Mag well you need to practice controlling the higher recoil.