Full auto conversion.
 

Does anyone know how to convert a firearm to full auto legally? I've heard bits and pieces here and there but never fully understood it. Could someone shed some light on this subject? Thanks.

Only with (expensive) components registered before 1986 and if state allows.

Even if you do manage to purchase a transferable auto sear (good luck!), you've barely scratched the surface. Just about all of the military-style rifles sold in the U.S. are designed specifically so that they cannot be converted back to auto very easily. If you compare the receivers of an AR-15 and an M16, for example, you'll find that the AR-15's lower receiver is filled in the space below the buffer tube, which would prevent the installation of an M16's full-auto selector. In the upper receiver, the bolt carrier channel is narrower than that of an M16, and the bolt carriers themselves are a bit different in design (the AR-15's bolt carrier lacks a certain tab that is responsible for engaging the auto sear in an M16). You'd need to do some serious work on both the upper and lower before you could even begin to think about installing the auto sear.

Quite a few of the transferable machine guns within the chain of commerce, particularly those of non-U.S. manufacture, are actually conversions of semi-automatic weapons. For instance, all of the transferable MP5s on the market are converted from HK94s or other semi-auto MP5 clones. However, most of these were done by Class III manufacturers/dealers who specialized in such conversions - La France, F.J. Vollmer, etc. I'm sure are plenty of people who can and have done their own conversion work after getting squared away with BATF (my Dad, who is a way better gunsmith than I am, is currently trying to learn how to convert my Chinese Poly Tech AK to auto). But most people just send their semi-auto rifle and the registered auto sear to one of these specialists, and pay them a ridiculous amount to do the conversion work for them.

My dad can do stuff like that. He once converted a state troopers AR-15 A2 and MAC-10/9 to full auto back when cops took advantage of that luxiory, since most cops had to fight the pissed of Native Americans in the 80s, as my dad claims. Unfortunately the guy came back and had them turned into semi autos again, and I only got to shoot them after the switch back.

I got to shoot a VERY fun Ruger 10/22 once, with one of those open bolt conversions. Spit out a LOT of ammo quickly. I'm going to delete this soon because god knows who could read this and interpret bad things. :mad:

Sort of like there is a reason as to why I want a G-3KA4 with M-203 mounted on it.

Yes I have handled an M-203 and a G-3( just not a KA4 varient but a relatives unit issues them.)

How is that possible? The ATF doesn't allow full auto guns to be turned back into legal civilian semi autos. They have that stupid mantra :"Once a machine gun... always a machine gun". And they have never backed off of this policy. Also one has to get the federal tax stamp when converting a gun to full auto, even for a police department. If it's before 1986, that was a helluva lot easier than it is today ....

Did you know that ATF changed their rules AGAIN and only allow ONE (!!) post 86 sample of each gun per license? So unless its a pre 1986 transferable, you can only get ONE m16, ONE mp5, ONE G3 .... You can't even get a spare .... Now the only way to get more than one is to (a) already have the multiple guns grandfathered in or (b) get a Manufacturing license and make them under the auspices of a post 86 sample maker. :mad:

It's kind of a loaded question on this. ATF does stat that once a machine gun always a machine gun. But if it's a registered part like a AR drop in sear or a M2 Kit than those are the machine gun and not the weapon they are put into. It's the way they registered the item as the machine gun.

Also semi to full to semi can be done on some systems without permanent mods making it possible to go back and forth. Defiantly not legal as per NFA but people do it all the time.

How legal the full auto conversion was to begin with was questionable.

I don't think this needs to be deleted, but you guys are the admins. Thanks for your input. I ask because it's sort of a dream of mine to get a fully automatic M16A1, or a half decent AK clone (Russian ones are virtually nonexistant, and I'll buy a baseball bat before a Chinese variant). I know how much a full auto M16 costs roughly, and I was just trying to figure out if it was cheaper to get an AR-15 and convert it rather than buying a full auto rifle from the start. Feel free to continue discussing, but my question is pretty much answered.

Actually, the pre-1989 Chinese Norinco and Poly Tech AKs were way superior to just about any other semi-auto AK available in the U.S., especially the crap that's available today. The MAK-90s were of lesser quality (mostly because they were partially assembled in the U.S.), but even they were still better than most of the Romanian SARs and other such shit clones.

Trust me (as somebody who actually owns a Poly Tech AK) - Chinese pre-ban AKs were some of the very best you could buy in the States. The Chinese stereotype about "cheap, mass-produced, low-quality" doesn't apply to their AKs.

It would be cheaper if you did the conversion work yourself. But if you can pay for the sear (which costs $10,000 and up), then you're already going to be taking out a second mortgage anyway, so why not just buy the whole deal? :D

I figured the Poly Techs were quality, I just don't want the sight hood, and the fact that I own a Chinese gun. Some gunners think China is the biggest threat on the face of the planet and will hate you for buying "Chinese junk". I'm also not gonna pay near or over 1000 dollars for an AK, they are supposed to be cheap. If I put down cash like that I'll probably buy an M16 variant.

How much would it cost to do it myself within the confines of the law, or how much would it cost to have someone take care of it for me, within the confines of the law, and which would be better overall?

Well, the advantage of the sight hood is that it tends to be a bit more durable than the partially-open front sight of other AKs (I've seen a lot that got bent after being banged around enough). Though it's easy to replace, and you aren't planning on fighting in a bush war with an AK anyway, so maybe that's irrelevant. :D

Any good military-style autoloader is going to cost you a lot nowadays, especially since Obama got into office. Even WASRs and other crap are now getting much more expensive. I dunno how much pre-ban prices are changing, but it's actually not the worst idea in the world. You get what you pay for, after all. I remember when I was trying to find an AK back in 2003, I just kept finding that all of the American AK clones I inspected were junk, so I figured I'd save more money and get something worth keeping forever.

Depends on what kind of tooling is available to you. My Dad maintains a full machine shop in his basement, including a milling machine (not CNC, but still quite good), a lathe, and a bandsaw. All he would need to do is order the diagrams and fire control parts after he bought the sear, and he could do the conversion with everything he already has. My machining skills are pretty rudimentary compared to his (my entire experience is half a summer school semester course in Duke University's machine shop), so I would probably have a lot more trouble.

If you don't have access to a machine shop with that kind of stuff, then...well, buying the tools would set you back a lot of money, too.

I have little money and can't legally buy guns (my dad can though), but I've wanted a Colt Law Enforcement Carbine since I saw them in SOG a few years back. It is the civilian version of the M4A1, with a 16" barrel to comply with the barrel length laws. You may have it in I Am Legend. Called an M4gery in the full auto film configuration. Matt (trying it out) also says he wants one, but he'll likely get one while I likely won't.

My Marine buddy recommend just get a full length AR-15 as he argues over accuracy.

The accuracy is an argument, but not why I might prefer an AR. The only reason anyone thinks of buying an AR is for SHTF, and I know that my mags take the same magazines as the military and police rifles, so ammo is heavily available. With an AK you have to have your own stuff, or take some time to find them and load them if there's ammo. The gun is fairly light too, and the interface is quick and easy to operate, and the sights are a little better. If it comes down to it, and I'm not saying it will, but it might, it's a good home defense tool.

With all due respect, it's kind of a ridiculous idea to think you can plan for an SHTF scenario. If you're really serious about it, guns are the last thing you need to worry about. Start by training yourself to live in the wilderness with no access to the Internet, grocery stores, or medical care. And try starving yourself for a few days at a time and see if you can handle it. I'm also of the opinion that the whole "lone survivalist" scenario is a pipedream. Humans survive best in gangs and tribes, and if SHTF, I would much rather be in a large organized militia than on my own. It isn't because I'm not a "rugged individualist" or whatever; it's because human beings really are better off in groups.

And if that's really your plan, then you'd be better off getting ahold of a weapon that fires 7.62x39mm ammunition. Even though 5.56x45mm is what the military uses, it's very difficult to raid government armories, and taking captured weapons from the battlefield won't ensure a constant supply of ammo. There's almost no insurgency in the world that can fight a campaign using captured weapons alone. Chances are, you'd need to start importing weapons and ammo (and I imagine plenty of international arms dealers would be happy to sell to American militias if it meant profit), and that means you're going to find AKs and 7.62x39mm are going to be what you have to use by necessity, simply because that's what most readily available on the black market no matter where you are in the world.

Maybe if you tried an AR-15 that fires 7.62x39mm ammo (plenty of manufacturers have built such weapons), that would be the best bet.

I agree that knowledge of wilderness would come in handy, but I'm not just gonna crawl into the forest instantly, I live in an urban environment. Also I never planned on just me alone, I just want a full auto for myself, the rest of my crew can have whatever they can get.

I do concede to the 7.62x39 point as well, but I'm not gonna get an AR-15 in the caliber. I'll just get an AK.

Also, SHTF is very far from my mind, I just want an automatic rifle for a yearly ammo dumping. Heheh.

Haha, trust me, I understand you weren't totally serious. My mind is just so wrapped up in reading about armed insurgencies (Hezbollah, the LTTE, Sendero Luminoso, etc.) that it's messing with my mind. I'm starting to think like a guerrilla myself. My thoughts had to come out somewhere. :D

If you are are not a licensed manufacturer your least expensive way for a legal AR-15 conversion would be to purchase a pre 86 transferable "lightning link." SWD made them and they go for $7500--$8500. They are a 2 piece sheet metal assembly that drops in with no modifications and allows the gun to fire in full auto only. No semi auto like the more expensive/robust (30% more $$) drop in auto sear (DIAS) which also requires reciever machining/modifications.
Good Luck,
4570guy