Nazi is a Political party, not a military force!
 

Remember this when updating or making IMFDB pages concerning the Armed Forces of World War II (whether it be movies, tv, anime or Video Games). The Correct term is either the branch of service or the generic "German".

Everyday people spouts the term "Nazi" when describing anything to do with the Third Reich, but "Nazi" was a Political Party, not a military force. The Heer (German Army) and the Waffen SS (as well as the Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, etc) were all military forces that answered to the government in power, which was held by the Nazi Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte, abbreviated as NSDAP). Plus the fact that many Germans were not Party members, one cannot ascribe the term to all Germans in the armed forces of the time.

So I cringe when IMFDB users describe a German WW2 soldier as "a Nazi Soldier". That's like calling ALL American GIs "Democrat Soldiers" as the American administration immediately before and after the war (from Roosevelt to Harry Truman) was in the hands of the Democratic Party.

Sorry, it's the WW2 historian in me that rants about this. :)

Also if I am not mistaken, I believe it was against the law to be in a political party if you were in the German military as well.

Yeah, that bugs me, too.

Even though the Nazis were a political party and not a military force, we can all agree that Nazis needed a dose of hot lead to the brain ASAP

I've always defer to the generic term "Germans"

I'm less polite about it. I call them Krauts.

Simplistic unfortunately. Remember that John Rabe was a Nazi party member. Early on many people joined the Party as a matter of course. The Party was itself defined by the twisted actions of many of its leaders. I know of other Nazi Party members who were hailed after the war as being one of the most famous being Oskar Schindler. I don't suppose you support the shooting of Oskar Schindler even though HE was a party member now ;)

Don't forget that MANY and I do mean, most of the military leaders of Germany near the end of the war wanted to fucking hang Hilter before he brings the end of the world on them, but it was already too late to do that anyway. The movie Valkyrie on that there were many Germans that wanted Hilter's reign to end and that everything the man was doing was not just madness, but stupid...despite the movie cast with Tom Cruise of all people as the main character. Oh yeah, he looks and sounded as German as Sean Connery looked and sounded Russian in Hunt for Red October

I heard a lot of the people who wanted hitler dead were military who thought his tactics were wreckless and wanted to win the war, not all were humanitarians who wanted to save lives or what not

It's hard to say. The German military had many professional soldiers who still adhered to a 'code of conduct'. The entire idiocy that Hitler did was an anathema to many of them, but they dared not comment on it.

1) I was surprised (and gratified) to learn through research that in the early years of World War II, Soldiers of the Waffen SS were appalled at their orders to massacre civilians. In fact early on, many complained, and were promptly rotated to the Russian Front, whereas more compliant (i.e. brainwashed into the Aryan Superiority propaganda) young men were screened and sent to do the Waffen SS's dirty business of rounding up Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, etc as well as many other atrocities against civilians. American history never mentions this intriguing fact.

2) There are many instances of Germans who hated the Nazis and wanted Hitler out. Some were naive, non violent and got wiped out early, take the Members of the White Rose for example.

3) There were Seventeen Assassination attempts on Hitler's life, not just the Valkyrie one.

4) History of the 'losers of a war' is always written by the winners. I remember early history books which pretty much painted the WW2 Germans as barbarians as a whole, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Reality, as we all know, is much more complex than that. :)

I'm suprised that no one has talked about how, given the chance, Rommel would have busted Hitler's dome wide open

Yeah, it is. There are two sides to every coin, as the saying goes.

I agree with not referring to Germans as Nazis, but I went out of my way to avoid referring to SS troops as soldiers when I capped "Schindler's List." The SS was declared a criminal organization after the war, their members were denied pensions (until they successfully sued the West German government) and former SS men are STILL being kicked out the US even today. Soldiers serve their country. These men served the Nazi party. Can we try to enforce that in across IMFDb?

But that's just people exacting political revenge. Men serving in the Waffen SS fought just like soldiers on the Eastern Front and during D-Day. You're not being 100% accurate. They WERE soldiers, albeit, soldiers who were given odious tasks. Entire Waffen SS divisions were lost fighting in Russia. What are they? Busboys?

This reminds of what our history teacher in secondary school did. He always accurately referred to all parts of the German military branch before, during and after World War 2 by name. Luftwaffe was Luftwaffe, a Wehrmacht Soldier was a Wehrmacht Soldier.
What I mean to say is, if possible the writer of an article should be as accurate as possible. A great benefit of doing the necessary research is that anachronisms and other details like wrong equipment can be pointed out to the reader. It adds to the quality of a page and guarantees that no one will be offended. Watching Wehrmacht soldiers with FG-42 parachute into Alaska with Russian helmets and French camouflage uniforms probably isn't that obvious at first;)

Okay, that's fair. And the US is just deporting former camp personnel. But in the context of Schindler's List, where they're pulling people out of their homes, shooting people on the street and in their hospital beds, I doubt you can call that soldiering.

For the first six thousand years of human history that was the definition of being a soldier, and in many countries it continues to be.

Not all German soldiers are evil. Have you guys read All Quiet On the Western Front? Wait a minute, take book takes place in World War I, a war that has no video games or movies based on it.

Sure, there were MANY German soldiers and officers that did NOT like the way Hitler was running their country and many had tried to kill him and failed. It's the mythos that has developed after WWII that has made the Germans of WWII into an evil archetype that represents the whole of Germany at the time.

I agree with most of that, but the SS was actually part of the Nazi party, even before they were in power.

So? As I pointed out before Oskar Schindler and John Rabe were Party members too as were a lot of people before the war.

And the Nazis were not thought to be as evil as they were BEFORE the war too. Remember that Americans gladly did the Nazi salute to honor visiting German dignitaries in the 1930s.

Remember the funerals for the victims of the Hindenburg. Newsreel footage show thousands of American well wishers doing the "Nazi style" salute. Being associated with the party in the 30s wasn't that big of a deal to most people. Only people who knew that pogroms and other evil things were being done under the auspices of the party's philosophy were aware of such thing and they were rare.

People view the NSDAP through the prism of 20/20 hindsight AFTER WW2, rather than view the NSDAP as people did BEFORE the war.

Another irony. Many in the U.S.A. who were against the NSDAP before the war were looked upon with suspicion. Charlie Chaplin pissed a whole bunch of people with The Great Dictator for example. Many agreeded with Lindburgh. It was felt that the anti-NAZI's were just trying to get the U.S. into another war. Also it was suspected that many of the anti-NAZI's were Communists.

After WWII memories changed. I've read some periodicals published during the mid-30's.Many voiced cautious support for Hitler and found Churchill to be something of a warmonger. Very enlightning. Like somebody else said it's complicted.

I love that movie.:D

So you guys still think of OJ Simpson as just a HOF running back?

You're trying to make the case for Nazism by pointing out the only two good members? Yes, people did view Nazism different before the war. If you've ever watched "Olympia" by Leni Riefenstahl, many teams gave Nazi salutes when they passed the reviewing stand. (US athletes did not, I should point out.) I don't dispute this. But you cannot ignore what they did after the war. And this is what we're talking about here. For ever one John Rabe or Oskar Schindler, who stuck their necks out to save the lives of innocent people, there are a dozen Klaus Barbies and Joachim Peipers who ended the lives of innocent people. Yes, Oskar Schindler was a good guy, and who were the people he was trying to save his Jews from? Other Nazis, and more specifically, the SS. Taking into account what happened during the war is not hindsight, it's the big picture. Yes, the SS was muscle for a political party, and that political party ordered them to murder millions of innocent people.

Here's the argument I made on the "Schindler's List" discussion page. "Here's my logic: After the death sentences were handed down at the Nuremberg trials, the Allies denied requests by the condemned to be shot by firing squad, their reason being, firing squads were for soldiers, and hanging was for criminals, and they wanted to ram home the fact that these men were criminals. Therefore criminals ≠ soldiers. According to the International Military Tribunal, SS = criminals. Thus, using substitution, SS ≠ soldiers."

And finally, I know it's not an infallible resource, but under the SS page on wikipedia, the following are the catagories under which they are listed (emphasis mine): "Categories: Nazi SS | 1925 establishments | Defunct law enforcement agencies of Germany | Military wings of political parties | Nazi organizations | Terrorism in Germany | The Holocaust | The Holocaust in Germany | Nazi Germany"

Nobody's trying to make a case for National Socialism.

Hey, it sounds pretty ugly when I point it out for what it is, isn't it? I'm trying to call a spade a spade and I'm facing opposition?

You're confusing a drive for historical accuracy with being a nazi sympathizer.

I AM trying to argue for historical accuracy, which means not giving criminals an honor that the International Military Tribunal refused to grant them in 1946. I'm also trying to differentiate between REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who did fight for their country instead of for the glory of the Nazi party, REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who HATE being lumped in with the SS. The SS were criminals, not soldiers. That is not political rhetoric, that is not historical revisionism, that has been their legal standing since 1946. If you have a problem with that, take it up with history and the IMT. You were the one who said used the words "Nazi sympathizer," not me.

Did you even read the original post, or do you assume anything that doesn't immediately demonize Nazis is white supremacist propaganda?

This should sum it up for you.

No but you're being INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. As I stated before, there were plenty of Waffen SS units, especially the Panzer divisions, which fought just like Heer units. There was no difference, especially on the Eastern Front. Don't use the post war condemnation of the SS as proof. Even though the disdain was justified it was still politically motivated. The winners of WW2 really wanted to crush any vestige of the Third Reich into the mud.

You're confusing the SS units who were occupation troops and death camp staff with combat units that fought on the front and you seem to be hysterical about this point. Get over it.

I'm defending those same people by saying that German soldiers, airmen and sailors who fought honorably should not be lumped in with people who WERE criminals. And you're the one who just called all Germans from the period Nazis. Germans are not to be demonized, Nazis are.

The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organization as well. And in the end, does it matter how they died? If we met a million Taliban troops or IRA troops in battle and killed them all, they'd still be terrorists. I'm talking about a legal distinction. And post war condemnations? They were condemned because we saw what they did. Einsatzgruppen were SS as well. The Malmedy Massacre was Waffen SS. And as I said, Waffen SS took over extermination camp administration starting in 1942, so it WAS them. There's no political motivation for bringing a genocidal regime to justice, it's just the right thing to do. It's political motivation that had the Allies ease up after the Iron Curtain fell. And you say crushing any vestige of the Third Reich into the mud like was a bad thing.

And I don't know if I'd use the word "myopic," but I'd certainly admit to seeing it as a black and white issue. But what has the SS done in the past 64 years to earn any of our sympathy or the benefit of our doubt? What has been done to rehabilitate their image? And as the survivors of Nazi atrocities slowly die off, is it not our duty to stay vigilant?

Are you that POI cat everyone keeps yappin' about? He did say he would be back...

Also the Taliban are not terrorists. They, too, are a political faction. You have them confused with Al Qaeda

What you say is correct about atrocities but soldiers in the Waffen-SS were still soldiers. They will be listed on pages as soldiers just like Japanese soldiers from Unit 731.

The actor playing the role was not listed as SS criminal but SS soldier. Any change to pages other wise will be dealt with as we are just to put information to fill in facts on the film and not any political leaning or view.

Unit 731 was still at least part of the Imperial Japanese Army proper. (Just look at my name, I'm the last person who'd want to stand up for the Japs. And it pisses me off they they avoided prosecution.) The Waffen SS was its own separate entity, and that was a deliberate separation on behalf of the Nazi leadership.

I did not want to list him as an "SS criminal," but simply as an "SS trooper," seeing how the title of "soldier" had been denied them by the IMT. I saw no reason why we should restore a title that had been denied them by a body far more qualifed that we were. The fact that the person in the screencap had just put a bullet through the head of a woman for the crime of having a nosebleed and being Jewish seems to indicate that the man, indeed, is a criminal. And "Trooper" was the most basic SS rank, so it seems appropriate.

Let's not do this.

What, it's just a quick convenient way to say Jap-a-nese

If anyone is offended, I apologize. "Nips" it is then... (J/K)



(Seriously, if anyone is not okay with it, I apologize.)