How Do BFAs Work?
 

I'm wondering how a blank adaptor allows a slide to cycle with such low power loads.

They block the gases from escaping the muzzle so this gives the gases enough power to kick the action back.

Of course, it also tends to make the actions much dirtier and wear them down faster than live rounds.

The the weapon is not a direct blow back then it needs modification for it to work with blanks.

Something like an AR needs no more than a BFA but something like an M1911 needs adjustments to the barrel including a muzzle plugs and milling down the part of the barrel seen in the ejection port.

At least that's what I think I know.

Maybe I'm wrong about this (Steve can correct me), but don't 1911s need the ejection port widened because of the fact that blanks have extended brass heads to hold the extra powder? I imagine that this would present problems in an un-modified 1911 because it would have trouble fitting properly through the ejection port while the gun was cycling. Or, at least, there would be a higher risk of a stovepipe malf.

You are correct on the ejection port on the 1911. The same goes for all semi-auto pistol except Beretta 92, Taurus PT99, Walther P-38. We remove material forward on the ejection port for the spent bras to rotate clear. Also the ejector has to be trimmed to assist on the ejection on some pistol but not the 1911. The longer brass is used to form a projectile shape crimp and we used the same case and crimp for at least four different loads. They will eject fine unfired from a unmodified ejection port but once fired will have a hard time clearing without mods.

So thats why all the old movies have nothing but p-38s and now adays its the taurus/beretta 92s dominating the screen.

Well, yes, I've been told by several armorers that the Beretta/Taurus 92 is one of the most reliable blank guns, and one of the easiest to convert.

OK, thanks for the info. Does the crimp hold any extra powder if you're doing a full-flash load in the cartridge?

Kind of a semi-silly question, but how reliable are Walther P99s as converted blank guns? Seems like the only ones I ever see in movies are first-generation models, like the Umarex models in Casino Royale or the QPQ-slide P99s used by Kate Beckinsale in the Underworld movies and Karl Urban in The Bourne Supremacy. I've yet to see any of the 2nd or 3rd-generation models in movies (though Activision and Treyarch modeled one for the Quantum of Solace videogame recently). What's up with that?

The crimp does not hold extra powder the way loads are set now. That would be on extra hot round and it would cause issues over time. All the crimp is for is to assist feeding of the blank rounds. The closer the black is shaped like the original cartridge the better the weapon functions.

The only ones I have seen are the ones that Bapty and Ellis Mercantile had and they were early versions. It's not that they are difficult to convert to blanks and the reliability is based on how they were converted. The main problem is that to some prop masters they looked like Glocks. Also some armories went and purchased SW99 because they looked close enough to the Walther P99.

I don't see why revolvers aren't used more, no adaptor needed, and they are popular among shooters.

Name a large metro police department the uses revolvers? The same goes for military units. Although revolvers are popular among shooters they fall far behind the popularity of semi-auto pistols. You will see revolvers in shows but only a couple compared to the rest unless it's a period film. The period films being made has more 1911 and Colt 1908 Pockets in them now.

I hate movies and shows taht show that every civilian and gangbanger has a beretta 92 though. And many more rural PDs give out revovlers, as a 6, 7 or 8 round 357 is more than enough for what's needed. I personally prefer a revovler or 1911, i'm split on that one.

The use of the Beretta 92F series pistols is a prop masters preference unless the script calls for something special. The few shows done using a rural PD have used revolvers as in Jesse Stone series and In the Heat of the Night series. It's just a fact of art imitating life that Gang Bangers caught to day with weapons have a semi-auto although they are mostly cheap pistols like the Lorcen .380 they also weapons as nice as a custom 1911. The mix of revolvers to pistols is about 70% to 75% in favor of the pistol. It's all about image with gang members and using a revolver (Grandpa's Gun) does not help their image with other gang members.

I remember hearing from someone who was processing weapons confinscated by police that most gang guns are saturday night specials like raven .25s and the most desirable gun they saw was a ruger single six. I guess it looks cooler in movies to have a glock or beretta.

It doesn't shock me to see gangbangers with Berettas (although I don't think they could get there hands on a 92, maybe a 92F or 92FS :)) that was my hinter to use proper Beretta designation, if no one caught that....

How hard is it for some gang member to take a Beretta off a dead cop or buy it from a black market sale? Berettas are common enough that some gangster with one isn't too shocking.

Like Steve said, autos dominate todays PDs and revolvers are sadly not as common. Enough private owners enjoy them though, so seeing a protaganist or off-duty cop with a revolver isn't as uncommon.

I think someone should re-invent the wheel with wheel-guns by building a new syle cylinder, that quick releases and can be swapped with a new one. This way, the cylinders act as magazines and make them less of a disadvantage to autos. I always liked the old blackpower revolvers like the Colt 1860 and the Remington 1858 because they offer this advantage, except some people didn't take advantage of it and tried to reload one all the way during a gunfight. Idiots.

Yeah, crooks typically use something they can conceal well enough that a cop's patdown could miss it, which it rarely does. Raven .25s are good enough guns (my mom owns a nickel one with pearl grips, although she's never shot it), and for the record, Saturday Night Specials refer to inexpensive snub nose revolvers, I don't believe autos are ever given that name.

Saturday night special means cheap gun. Doesn't matter what type.

Revovlers are common in PDs as a backup gun, many J frames take this place. Smith and Wesson and charter arms making some very light .38s.

And bad guys can aquire nice semiautos but only a few will, they're not rich and can't just rake out cash for one. A G17 is a status symbol for them.

As for quick reload, moon clips are actually incredibly fast if you know how to use them.

I know cops carry snubs as back up guns but I'm talking about service revolvers. Hardly any PDs issue revolvers as the officer's main gun.

And I know moon clips are very fast (I've seen Jerry Miculek shoot), but try loading flat head wad-cutters into a revolver quickly. The flat tips make it as hard to load them as trying to load empty shells in.

SNS is commonly used to define revolvers but autos apparrently enter the class too based on the definitions at urbandictionary.com.

SWAT entry men holding the shield also use revolvers, as there were problems with an auto's lside hitiing the shield causing jams. I know there not as common as semis, but you expect to see a few.

I've seen SWAT guys use autos with shields too. They just have to hold the shield a certain way so the slide doesn't hit the shield.

A criminal will use anything he can get his hands on. They don't know the difference between a two-five and a Desert Eagle 99 percent of the time, they just know that they have a gun to kill someone with if they choose to. Fuckers, the lot of 'em.

Also, according to some websites, the NYPD allows carry of a S&W Model 64 if you've been on the force for some time. If you're that old, you probably don't know how to use anything else besides a wheelgun. I believe Michigan State Police and Mass Staties allow revolvers too.

A lot of departments allow quality weapons if you can qualify, i've seen plenty of police without standard issue.

As for crimianls, I want to see a movie where they all have ravens and hi-points.

That's not always true. Think about how many rappers have made references in their songs to Glocks, Desert Eagles, AK-47s, MAC-10s, Uzis, TEC-9s, etc. I'm pretty sure the young thugs and gangsta-wannabes who listen to that kind of music hear gun brand names enough in their favorite songs that they start wanting those kinds of guns. In fact, earlier today, I was listening to a Dr. Dre song where he rapped, "As long as I got a Beretta, nigga, I'm down for whateva." You can imagine how that kind of influence trickles down eventually.

Also, I live in Texas and I regularly see "gangsta"-type dudes (mostly Latinos) come into my local FFL when I'm there. Most of the time, they ask for something pretty specific - like a "Glock Fo-tay", or a "Ruger Fo-Five". A few weeks ago, while I was shooting my P226 on the range, there were some Asian thug dudes (Koreans, I think) who had rented the AR-15 and were trying it out. I remember one of them even shot some pretty decent groups, too.

Remember that Steve's in California. Outside of the LAPD, there aren't that many departments that issue the Beretta 92F anymore. Glock accounts for something like 60% of the domestic LE market, SIG-Sauer takes up most of the rest.

LAPD has I believe three authorized manufacturers that can be used for standard issue Beretta, Glock and Smith and Wesson. LAPD Metro SWAT has Kimber 1911. LA County Sheriff still has Beretta and PDs around Southern California use autos of different makes or calibers. I have worked with or met officers from Sacramento to San Diego and I have not seen a revolver used as a primary weapon on a active duty officer for years.

It's funny how this went from How BFA's work to the use of revolvers on film.:rolleyes:

Hell you listening to him for? ;)

When I was at the Calicunte (spl?) gun range getting my small game liscense, two guys were trying out an AR Carbine (It was either a Colt or a Bushmaster) and they obviously had no clue how to use it. They were trying out the box of 20 .223 Wolf ammo that came free with the gun. I stood by watching, keeping to myself as they attempted to load the magazine. They tried to slide the rounds in from front to back, when the STANAG mags require that you simply snap them in. By doing what they did, they made loading the mag much harder. I corrected them on this but they had no idea what I was saying.

Then one of the guys loads the magazine in (It bugged me how he didn't slap the back of the magazine to set the bullets) and racked the charging handle. He aims, pulls the trigger, and the gun clicks. He racks the action again and I notice no dud round flies out. I walk over and ask if I can see the gun. He complies and hands it to me. First I remove the mag and set the rounds because that's how I roll. Then I loaded the magazine in, pressed it in so it was FULLY in the gun, then racked the charging handle and gave it back.

The guy could see I knew my shit and offered me some trigger time. I made the mistake of not wearing ear protection. After three rounds I heard nothing but ringing!

Then I reloaded the magazine and did it PROPERLY, which they finally realized was the correct manner. I got to shoot two more rounds and his friend got to shoot three. It was a fun gun but it is probably stuffed in a closet somewhere, still uncleaned from its last firing, since I can assume he was that type of shooter.

If I was the gun owner I'd tell them to leave. I would never sell guns to people who carry them to kill enemy gang members while firing them sideways (or shady individuals who fit this role). The cool concept of "Bandit shooting" in which the recoil is used to do a horizontal sweep is completely unknown to gangsters and they hold the gun sideways simply because it "looks cool."

They could use one of these:
http://i43.tinypic.com/xpdkee.jpg

It came up while I had my iPod on random, I promise. ;)

One of the issues is...how do you tell them apart? Way too many of the Latinos around here look kinda thuggish, so it's hard to the ones who are working for cartels apart from the ones who are just dumb. But I've definitely seen the uncomfortable look that they get when they enter.

Somewhat back on track, thanks to loaders like Joe Swanson who pioneered motion picture blanks, we now have a product that produces CONSISTANT results. Not to diminish anyone else's efforts, there are other blank manufacturers that have copied and improved the designs with new powders, refined crimps and profiles.
It wasn't until we had reliable ammunition that improvements in gun blanking, especially pistols, could more quickly evolve. I'm sure that Steve C would concur that "our guns are only as good as the blanks"
Regarding the crimp, it also keeps the powder retained and burning longer than wads thereby resulting in consistant pressures especially critical for semi/full auto gas operated guns. Without that the 1/4 and solid plug loads (9mm solid plug only 1-2 grains of powder!!) would be even more tempermental.

4570guy

Really interesting info. Thanks! Are you also an armorer?

I agree there were blanks in the early 1900's but they had paper or wood bullets. Stembridge made blanks in the 1920's but Joe Swanson set the bar for consistent and reliable blanks in the film industry.

Now that'd be a funny conversational piece to have. XD

Yes I'm an armorer
MT2008, email me-
4570guy

I'm not an armorer, but I'm wondering if the reason you don't see many P99s in films is because theyre going to get shot alot, and P99s wear out quickly compared to other pistols. I was talking to a guy who runs a rental range, and who's guns see alot of rounds, and he said the P99s were always the first to need replacing. CZ75s last the longest, if anyone was wondering.

I know the question was meant in a film context, but here's the BFA for my C7:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3553/pict0347.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/pic...jpg/1/w800.png

The open section at the back locks around the groove in the flash hider (originally meant for rifle grenades) and then you screw in the plug to block up the barrel. You can even see how filthy it is in there from all the carbon build-up - they come pained safety yellow. Unit SOP is to cam it up with green gun tape though.

I have a box full of 100s of those little BFAs (colored red) built to thread on a birdcage muzzle break for an AR-15/M16. Sadly I don't own one though. The box also had a SL of blank ammo, much of which I shot through my dad's Ruger Mini-14 while hanging out with some friends (but being safe of course)