Use of Pistols in Combat
 

So I have a question for any and all members of our armed forces out there. Ive been watching a lot of these "raw" videos from Afghanistan (http://www.youtube.com/user/FUNKER530), really worth checking out by the way, and I had a question. How often, if ever, do you use a sidearm in combat? In all the footage I've ever seen in combat, be it news reels or this raw, helmet cam stuff, they are always using primary weapons (which obviously makes sense). I'm just wondering how often do you ever use your pistol? Is it solely a last ditch "I'm out of ammo for my M4" type thing? Or are there certain situations that call for a pistol instead of a primary weapon?

Thanks for the info.

I always thought it was for running dry or stoppages.

Well for a lot of GIs, the "M4 thingy" is all you have. Only selective people in the military are given sidearms and it depends on their jobs. The vast majority of the armed forces used M16s and only selective members of the squad gets M4s depending on the mission.

It's not like games or tv and movies where every military guy gets a rifle and a handgun. There's actually not enough handguns in the military to go around

The Marines changed who got what just a few years ago:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...arbine_070625/

Most of the current and former service members I've talked to about this subject tell me they'd rather carry "a few extra mags" for their M16 or M4. Outside SOF, the general consensus seems to be that pistols are borderline useless in combat.

But, as I said, that's just from the ones I've talked to, which is a tiny minority of the whole armed forces, so who knows.

Really it's not that pistols are useless in combat, but the situations GIs find themselves, pistols are inappropriate and dead weight. It's just one extra thing to worry about to them.

This one might take a bit so, go take a leak and grab a cup of coffee.

I carried an M-9 Beretta, I was issued on as a PFC because I carried an M-4A1 the -203 slung underneath and our TO&E called for grenadiers to carry a sidearm sense they couldn't carry a bayonet. Side note: In lieu of the bayonet, I carried my cousin's Ka-Bar that he wore on his survival vest in OEF. He gave it to me before I deployed as a sort of tailsman.

When we deployed, I had been bumped up to squad leader, but was still carrying the -203 due to a few holes in the platoon. Further note: With the exception of my platoon sergeant, PDM and SDMs, the other platoon grenadier, the SAW gunners, and the -240 team, everybody in my Platoon carried an M-4A1, but we were a Cav unit so we were still equipped as if we would be fighting from the Brads.

I used my Beretta exactly once. We were in rather close confines and I flt it would be quicker to use it then fool with getting my M-4 back in the fight just then. Fired 9 rounds from it and reholstered it. That was it. It wasn't even all that mission critical, just more a matter of convience.

Well recently Colt just won the contract to make new M45s for the Recon Marines, so they obviously value the pistol in combat.

Sorry to disappoint guys, but most pistols are actually issued to support troops so they don't have to needlessly carry a rifle at all times. You don't really see many in the infantry.

In my experience it is the other way round. It may have been the case in the past that support troops would be issued pistols in lieu of a larger weapon, but in recent years there has been a shift to issuing them with carbines or PDWs. One reason for this is that it requires a much higher level of training to effectively use a pistol rather than a carbine or other shoulder fired weapon. Also with the increasing prevalence of body armour a pistol will not necessarily be effective.

In the British Forces pistols are only used by front-line troops who are expected to come into very close contact with the enemy, officers, specialists like machine gunners and snipers who's long is unsuitable for close personal defence, or people who are working in a confined space where they cannot carry a carbine. For this last point that pretty much narrows it down to just fast air pilots as armoured vehicle crews and helicopter pilots carry either full size L85A2s or L22A2s (they will also possibly carry a pistol as well as their carbine will be in a bracket and they may not have time to grab it before they evacuate the vehicle, but the go to weapon is the carbine).

I have personally fired a pistol in combat, but probably only two or three times. When driving I would unholster my pistol and put it on the dash in front of me when going through a particularly dodgy area so was quicker to get to than my rifle and could still drive one handed. However, if I was getting out I would go straight for my rifle. Bear in mind I wasn't actually meant to have a pistol. Someone had just managed to get their hands on some L9A1s which we smuggled out there when we deployed, and we ended up passing them on when we came home.

Id want a backup of some sort. Sure the "rather have extra mags" crowd is very vocal but mags dont do any good with a stoppage when someones right in front of you. Theres a reason every carbine course practices transitions

When I was on active duty with the U.S. Army (1993-2000) I was military intelligence. More specifically I was a 96R - Ground Systems Surveillance Systems Operator. I worked mostly with man-portable radars and REMBASS (Remote Monitered Battlefield Sensor Sytem). We worked in three and four man teams and usually got attached to other units. My team usually went to the division (10th Mountain Division) aviation and artillery elements for field problems and rotations down to Fort Polk, Louisiana.

Since we were often on our own we were actually had a pretty heavy selection of firepower. Two of us had M16A2 (in 98 we got M4 carbines), one of the team members had the M16/M203 and the 4th man had the M249 SAW. For a brief time we were all issued the M9 in addition to the other weapons. Then after a few months the Army decided only the SAW gunner needed the M9. A few months after that the Army took the M9's away and never gave them back. At least not as of 02/14/2000 - that was my ETS or end of service date.

So that's my experience with pistols in the Army. Well I was a tanker in the Idaho Army National Guard (88-93) and we were issued the M1911A1 until 92 when we got the M9. Before we switched over to the M1 tank we were still using the M3A1 "Grease Gun", but after we switched to the M1 from the M60A3 we turned in the Grease Guns and got one M16 per tank. We were expected to take the M240 that the loader could fire from his position if we had to abandon the tank. So between the M240, pistols and the M16 I guess the Army thought we would be okay.

They didn't make the deployment with us, due to ammo incompatability, but being a Cav Scout, we had a full set of M-3 grease guns in the armory for our Brads, with much th same dispersion.

According to my Platoon Sergeant, who did take an M-3 to Gulf War One, thy had those forever xcept for a brief time when the tried to field the wierd CAR-15 armored vehicle crewman carbine thing.

I also thought it was neat that the M-3s were packed with a stick magazine pouch as well.

Each track was issued two grease guns and an M-16, with all the crew being issued Berettas.

I saw that there was an "Egress kit" for the M240D, but I can't find any pictures of it. What does it entail?

A butt, bipod and a trigger group with a full length pistol grip. These are the parts that are removed, with the spade grips themselves on the right, and the part on the left being a trigger group with a short pistol grip that includes a linkage from the spade grips.

I'm simply conveying what was told to me, and the words were "borderline useless", not "dead weight", "something else to worry about", etc..

Eh, I'm glad I had my Beretta, but it's not something I would sweat if I didn't have.

Hell, I was already carrying ten mags on my MOLLE. I was fine as is.

Though around the FOB, it was much easier to carry my M-4 around than fool with my shoulder holster or old pistol belt and UM-84 holster.

As a police officer a handgun is more useful. I need my hands free to do things like look at driver licenses, take photographs, arrest people, write in my notepad, ect. It just isn't as practical to carry a rifle or shotgun on my person all the time. But I never know when I might need a firearm so I carry a pistol - two of them actually. The rifle and shotgun ride in my patrolcar.

Police work is a lot different than military.

carbine/pistol combo is a time proven setup.

What kind of rifle and shotgun?

I bet an AR-15 and an 870

I bet a Mini-14 and a Mossberg 500. Ha!

I'll believe a Mossberg but really, a Mini-14?

A Colt AR-15 carbine from 1977. It's old, like me, but it still works and a Remington 870. most of the time when I think it might be time for the long-guns to be deployed I go with the Remington. I'm usually the only guy with the shotgun. I get teased by the younger officers, but the shotgun is a powerful psychological tool (big bore and that great racking sound) and it can be useful on locks and door hinges. I've shot up doors a few times at our range and it really does work like they show in the movies. I carry both 00 buck and slugs.

The sheriff department carried the Ruger Mini-14 up until a few years ago then they went to the M4 carbine. Yes that's right the M4 carbine with the 3 round round burst setting. Traditionally sheriff department's have more money than city departments - more of a tax base to rely on. Incidentally even though police departments can buy and carry full-auto weapons here in the United States we still have to pay the Federal tax on them. I had one of the local ATF agents tell me that. So it can get pretty expensive.

If we want a rifle we have to provide our own. The deputies are issued their rifles. *Sigh*.

I carry a Glock 19 and my backup is the S&W Model 49 Bodyguard. I also am authorized to carry my Glock 26 as a backup and off-duty gun. My department authorizes either the Glock 21 or the Glock 19. I went with the G19 becasue I have small(ish) hands and I didn't like the big blocky grip of the G21. Now we've got the new Gen4 G21's and as a firearms instructer I was given the option of taking one of the first ones to come in. But I've been carrying my G19 for almost seven years now (it was brand new when I got it) and I like it. So I'm sticking with the whimpy 9mm.

Well a cop buddy of mine said he'd rather pay the money to get his own than be issued a weapon that he might or might not be allowed to modify to his own spec. For a patrol rifle, he personalized his own AR-15. Sure he had to pay for the tax stamp on it being an SBR, but he said it was worth it.

That's what our Deputies carry and our Troopers can select either a Mini-14 or Bushmaster.

I like it. :p

I would've thought that it'd be the opposite, that they'd issue more shotguns and make rifles optional. Like you said, it's more versatile, and you don't have to worry about stray rounds or overpenetration as much. And most importantly, for the most part, they're cheaper than most rifles.

I believe that shotguns are gradually giving away to rifles in American law enforcement. Basing that on what I've read and just following trends. I'm going to be 45 in a couple months and I like the shotgun though like all firearms it has it's limits. However like I wrote in my earlier posting it seems that younger officers prefer the rifle over the shotgun. And it's understandable. It carries more ammo. is easier to reload, easier to shoot and has greater range.

I might be a dinosaur, but I understand.

Wow an old slab slide, way cool. You should post a pic of it if you're allowed to. If your 870 has wood furniture, that would be the icing on the cake. I have a 653 clone (fixed carry handle, 16" lw barrel) I prefer the way it handles and shoots over my M4gery with all the tac stuff. Simple is better sometimes.

Yeah our sheriff's department is way too big. (We've done building drawings for them in that past, so I really shouldn't complain.) There was an article a few years back when they got new ARs. They weren't full auto or anything. I can't remember the maker I think it was Del-ton or something. There was bid between several makers. The deputies were required to go through a training course and had to pass before being issued one. Which I thought was good policy. I think our police department still has just shotguns.

A Police Riot Magnum 870 with the five shot tube and wood furniture is on my short list of guns to own.

If I had to do it all over again, if I went back to the A-Stan I would arragne to have myself issued an M-16A4 and not put anything on it.

Mine, it was a 5-shot. Since my other 870 has an extended tube also I've pondered about going back to a 5-shot.
http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/ad/PRE20-870.JPG


I just built a 20" A4. But not even thinking about it, the upper receiver I bought has M4 cuts and my barrel doesn't. The M4 cuts are pretty shallow, I've hand cycled it and it feeds good and no weird marks on the brass. But I'd rather not take the chance. So I may break it back down.

Bottom left. http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/lof...p?t109136.html

Neat! My sole desire for the five shot tube is aesthic reasons. I just think it looks nice with the barrel going longer than the tube.

And hell, if the Russians or North Korea ever do paradrop in, I will be using my Mossberg 590 with the eight shot tube anyway.

And Cordell, don't call your self a dinosaur, because I'm halfway there.:)

Okay. LOL. Our Remingtons all have plastic furniture on them now. I actually prefer the wood furniture that we used to have on them.

I agree. I like wood furnitured riot guns.

Remington 870s and Ithaca 37s being my favorites.

At a gun shop in Athens, there was a police trade in Ithaca 37 with dark beech on the pump and what looked to be walnut on the stock, an obvious replacement. To me that gives the gun a certain character that my Mossberg 590 Mariner will never have.

What Nyles said. Your basic infantryman does not get a sidearm. The Platoon leader, first sergeant, company commander, and M240 gunners are typically the only ones who are issued sidearms.
Most people who carry sidearms are noncombat personnel.

Add grenadiers to that list as well.

And plus, had we been in Gulf War I, I would have carried a pistol in lieu of my M-4 because I would have been fighting in my "other" job as a Bradley gunner.