Weapons in the Red Dawn Remake
 

As some of you may already know, there is a remake of Red Dawn currently being filmed in and around Detroit. What's interesting is that while the Chinese and Russian militaries are the antagonists this time, it seems from set photos that the enemy soldiers will all be armed with AK-103 style rifles:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/408...wnuniform2.jpg
Neither Russia or China use the AK-103 in general service, so could the choice to use AK-103s be due to practical reasons (such as the near impossibility of acquiring actual QBZ-95s) or would it be more due to the Kalashnikov being such a recognizable weapon? I'd like to hear what others think.

If they did this in Canada, they could have got themselves imported QBZs. If this remake is supposed to take place in modern times, I guess it's harder to get the current standard Chinese or Russian weapons, but I don't get how it's even possible storywise for such a thing to happen, unless in the movie, the cold war never ended and now the Chinese decided to come along. Russia and China weren't that friendly during the cold war.

It could be the 103s are standing in for 74Ms. Both are externally similar.

Wouldn't it be easier to get AK-74Ms instead of AK-103s?

Those aren't genuine AK-103s. If you look closely, you can see that they have the AKM-style front sight, gas tube, and ribbed receiver cover. They're probably AKMs (Egyptian, most likely) fitted with Bulgarian plastic furniture and AK100-style flash hiders.

Anyway, the reason why they're using these is probably because American armorers have more difficulty getting ahold of the latest Russian and Chinese weapons, so they often use other weapons as stand-ins. Canadian and British armorers, however, do seem to have much easier access to the newest weaponry. As Excalibur has pointed out, "Stargate: Atlantis" has featured some QBZ-97s, because it seems that one of the Canadian armories has managed to purchase some of those from Norinco. I imagine it'd be much harder for American armories to do the same.

But then again, I haven't had the chance to visit any of the American armories (yet), so maybe they have acquired new stuff.

No. If an American armorer wanted to simulate the AK-74M, I imagine what they would do is take the Chinese Type 84 (which was sold in the U.S., and very often stands in for the AK-74 in our movies), give it plastic furniture and a fake AK-74 flash hider, and then pass that off as an AK-74M.

BTW, I realize it's kind of hearsay to say it, but...the very idea of this movie is laughable. I know this scenario is the fantasy of American gun owners everywhere, but face the facts, guys: America is China's biggest export customer, and China is America's biggest creditor. It would be economic and political suicide for China to invade the U.S. because their internal stability basically hinges on their economic relationship with us. All of China's crackpot Third World "allies" (from North Korea to Iran) put together could never take our place in their economy.

And of course, everyone knows that China is not a communist country anymore (except in name), so the "Red" in the title is irrelevant. If the title were going to reflect what China really is today, it should be something more like "Confucian/Han Pride Dawn", but I guess that wouldn't be politically correct. Anyway, Marxism (and socialism in general) is pretty much dead all around the world, and has been for the better part of 20 years, so y'all might as well accept that a "Red Dawn" is never going to happen, ever. A "Green Dawn", on the other hand...

Also, if you ever want to know how China might REALLY try to conquer us, read up on their tactics in cyber-warfare.

That seems to be a fairly plausible reason since IIRC the ban on Norinco products in the U.S is still in effect, although I'm curious as to why the armorers couldn't have modified a bullpup style weapon like the Century Arms AK to look like a QBZ 95.

Good point. An even better option might have been the Ruger Mini-14 with the Muzzlelite stock. American armorers used to love those in the 1990s because they could make sci-fi firearms with them (i.e. the Moritas from "Starship Troopers"). I imagine that'd be a possible QBZ stand-in.

It might also be, however, that the director (who makes the final choices on weapons) decided that he wanted the Chinese soldiers to use AKs because those are universally associated with "Reds".

I always love it when guys say "Gee why don't you spend tens of thousands of dollars on obscure weapons that will rent once and never again. That's an smart use of your financial resources. :)" That's the primary reason American armorers don't use the newest stuff. Sure, if it will be rented many times, then of course. Also don't expect REAL versions of any of the recent Russian AKs, they will most likely all be build ups from receivers we already have in country.
:confused:

Actually, the Norinco Type-97 is even sold commercially here. Both standard and shorty versions. Not my cup of tea, but I've heard good thing.

I always wanted to say that. Hell, even the original Red Dawn was kind of stupid. At least it was a good movie, though. Invading the US is just a retarded idea.

You mean in CANADA where you're from.

For a moment I thought you were talking about the U.S. which would be a false statement since I know that Type 97s aren't available anywhere in the U.S. :eek:

I know that Canadians can still get stuff which we American cannot (at least without jumping through a million hoops). We can blame the ATF for a lot of our woes, but they're just doing the bidding of whatever administration comes down the pipe. What we need is Congressional action to reign them in, good luck of that ever happening.

Why is the Norinco 95 or type 97s banned in the US anyway and yet we can get other bullpup style rifles here? What's the point.

I didn't mean to come across as naive, but how much does it typically cost to modify existing prop weapons to be more "modern" or "sci-fi" looking?

What Imported Bullpup can you get (since 1989)? Name one. All of the bullpups in country are built here. A few got in in the 90s like the stilly Steyr USR with the 'thumbhole stock and 10 round magazine, but that was the only one and now ATF won't even allow THAT in.

So what new military style bullpup have you seen for sale in the U.S. that is an IMPORTED gun? It's a function of the non sporting clause of the import ban. That's why the only bullpups we can get here are US built ones or US licensed ones. As far as I know, no one licenses Chinese designs.

Hmmm, that's really interesting. But don't you guys already have your own anti-assault rifle laws?

And yes, it does seem Canada gets the latest Chinese weapons in bulk. That certainly explains the QBZ-97s that Americans have seen in our TV shows and movies that were filmed in Canada.

Yeah, I love the original as much as anyone, even if it was an absurd concept. But remaking "Red Dawn", 20 years after the Cold War ended and "Reds" ceased to exist, just seems to be pissing on the original's historical value (and yes, I do consider "Red Dawn" to be a film of enduring historical value).

So close to doing this in my neck of the woods, we have the 95 97 all ready to go!

Ah, so they are actually filming some of the movie in Canada? And Movie Armaments Group is supplying weapons for the show?

For the red dawn remake??

I was kind of disappointed when I saw the PLA soldier actors armed with AK-47 type rifles when in RL they have a weapon as unique looking as the QBZ 95.I was hoping to at least see a mock-up of the QBZ-95; though I'm not in the industry so what do I know.

Hopefully the action in the film is good.

-sorry for poor writing structure/grammar, I am tired

They should of made the invading country North Korea. It makes perfect sense. North Korea is a communist country runned by stupid facists who blow millions of dollars on nuclear weapons. If they made the invaders Al-Quaida or the taliban, that would just bring back the trauma 9/11 brought. The screenwriters must of thought that Chinia is still a red state and decided to make it the invaders.

Al-Qaeda being the invaders makes no sense. The only way they would invade is to bomb a few places with car bombs and maybe throw a few planes into buildings but they could never to a full scale invasion. Neither could the Taliban.

Also, North Korea you say?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homefront_(video_game)

Still kinda stupid idea. North Korea is even less likely since it's small as hell, less population than the United States. It's navy and air force is laughable compared to the US. Even with nukes, the worse that can happen is that North Korea is a smothering black heap from retaliatory strikes than an invading nation.

It's even less likely than China or Russia. At least with those guys, they have a vast army and reputation.

I don't see North Korea invading the U.S., at least not on it's own.

Not really, they actually have the 4th largest Army in the world and quite a sizeable airforce with modern aircraft like the MiG 29 Fulcrum. -far from laughable

Their Navy however is not a blue water navy.....so yeah


China has the largest army in the world, However Russia has the 8th largest army in the world ;while North Korea has the 4th largest army in the world.
I do not think "reputation" would factor in when the bullets start flying and the bombs start dropping.

North Korean Army is much larger than the Russian Army.

Thank you for giving some logic behind my North Korea therory. It could be possible for a invasion if they were backed up by other communist countries like Cuba, Laos, or Vietnam.

North Korea has shitty technology. And as I said, a invasion on American soil is just ridiculous.

Sorry, but...no. Nobody can ever invade the U.S. and defeat us militarily on this side of the globe. It's not just an issue of technology or military size; it has more to do with geography.

Because America has two huge oceans on either side, and a large land mass with abundant natural transportation routes (allowing quick response deployment of defense forces), you would need two things to invade America - (1.) a Navy with MANY carriers, and (2.) the ability to have air superiority (if you're invading by sea, #2 is impossible without #1). Even put together, Russia and China and the other rogue states have neither of these. Russia is looking to deploy about 5 carriers by the next decade, while China is building its first two. That's pathetic. If you don't possess these capabilities, you can't even begin to think about putting troops on the ground. Even if Russia and China did manage to increase their capabilities so that they could create some huge armada to invade the U.S., they'd still be at a huge disadvantage. The continental U.S. land mass is too large, and our forces are too widely dispersed. If they invaded the West Coast, the East Coast, and the Gulf of Mexico simultaneously, they'd still be sitting dicks for all of our air power based further into the country, stuff that they could never hit. There's just too much American control of the skies no matter what they do or how many troops they send.

The classic work on this problem, which I read as an undergraduate, is by a guy named Nicholas Spykman. He was writing about the possibility of American invasion by the Germans and Japanese in WWII, so obviously, his work is dated. But the main thing to keep in mind is that unlike the Russians and Chinese today, the Germans and Japanese did have naval capabilities (including lots of carriers) that were as good as ours for that time period. And even then, Spykman concluded that invading America by sea would be impossible for them - for the same reasons I mentioned above.

Oh, yes, and did I mentioned the other things you're forgetting?

(1.) You're assuming that Russia and China (who managed to become enemies even when they were both still communist, mind you) would see mutual interests in getting rid of us. Even though America is China's biggest export customer.

(2.) You seem to think Russia and China would risk nuclear war - even though American missiles already hold Russia hostage and could easily do the same to China.

(3.) You're forgetting that Russia and China would have to commit just about all of their forces to one area, even though American forces are all across the globe and can easily threaten Russia and China while they're over-extended.

(4.) You're assuming that nobody in the whole world - in Europe, in Latin America, or Asia - would support us, even though 90% of the world depends on us in some way that is extremely vital to their national interests. The Europeans may be reluctant about supporting us in Afghanistan and Iraq, but you'd be surprised at how they'd react if they thought they might lose us. And they'd most likely start by attacking our enemies while over-extended - for instance, if North Korea sent its forces to help invade the U.S., don't you think South Korea would use that opportunity to attack the North? Don't you think that communist/totalitarian/whatever leaders would consider this?

BTW, I forgot to mention that when the original "Red Dawn" came out, a Red invasion would have been even LESS likely. Before 1985, the Russians' only aircraft carriers were the Kiev class, which were tiny and couldn't fly anything except short-range jump jets and helicopters. Their first aircraft carrier capable of flying capable offensive fighters like the MiG-29K and Su-33 was the Admiral Kuznetsov, which was launched in 1985. Even then, the MiG-29K and Su-33 weren't in service at the time (they weren't until after the Cold War ended), so they wouldn't have had air superiority fighters capable of taking on our F-15s and F-16s.

And as I've said already, you'd need LOTS of aircraft carriers, with LOTS of air superiority fighters, to even think about invading the U.S. So, even at the time "Red Dawn" was in theaters and the Ruskies still hated our guts more than they do today, your chances of seeing a Soviet invasion of the U.S. were about .0__________01% (insert infinitely more zeros in the blank space).

No surprise there. Milius is a talented filmmaker, and as I've said already, I enjoy "Red Dawn" as much as anyone. But an invasion of the continental U.S. is a geographic and strategic impossibility.

Thanks MT, that must have taken you a lot of energy to put down. More than what I can do. I guess US citizens today are more worried about the government suddenly becoming too corrupt and taking away basic rights like the right to bear arms, though that is most certainly an impossibility right next to being invaded

Wow, how could I have ever known? Boy, those NKs really taught us... Wait, that's a video game! :rolleyes: I assure you, defeating the US Army (or the US military as a whole) is much harder than the stroke of a pen on paper.

As far as citing a video game as proof...

http://skepacabra.files.wordpress.co...8/facepalm.jpg

I'm not citing the video game as proof, Spartan. I'm just showing that John Milius made a Red Dawn game with North Koreans instead of Soviets.

Seriously, Do you think I would really do that?

Not really; I'm a grad student in IR. This is the kind of stuff we study. Plus, I've had the good fortune to take classes with some of the most respected people in this field.

Well, in my defense, the discussion was centered around the possibility of it happening in real life, influencing how I interpreted it.

RD is not filming up here, almost though.
We are not supplying anything, paper work is a nightmare and we are focusing on our new 3D guns for a show we are doing at the moment.

Here's another interesting weapon in the remake, the Norinco Type 67 machine gun:

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4...dawntanker.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title...Type-67-II.jpg

And this is what the Russians will look like:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/452...ansreddawn.jpg

That Type 67 looks like a mocked up FN MAG.

And the russians look nothing like real russian soldiers. I could be wrong, though.

Vest looks American.

But they got the Russian flag on their patches.

I remember a board game in the 1980's that was about this very scenario. I forget who made it, but it wasn't Avalon Hill. Anyway I purchased it my sophmore year in college (1987 - 1988).

I and my college buddies spent many hours playing this game. The game gave many advantages to the U.S. to include a anti-missile orbital and ground based laser network. We modified the game removing the laser network and giving the invaders a solid foothold on land - ala Red Dawn. Even handicapping the United States and giving several advantages to the invaders the United States was still almost impossible to defeat entirely. Ultimately logistics made all the differences. The invaders had long supply lines and the U.S. didn't. There were other factors as well such as political and diplomatic, American partisans behind enemy lines etc.

Most of the time the invaders could hope for a deadlock at best and more often than not they found themselves being pushed back.

Could this country fall? Sure,but it would take more than sheer force of arms. We would have to collapse from within for an armed invasion to really be victorious. Sort of like what happened to France in June of 1940 and what didn't happen to France in WWI.

Vests and combat shirts are separate, though. ;)