The game you're thinking of is Fortress America. I picked up a copy at a garage sale for a song... wargames rule.

Vest is a vest, really. Although that's quite different from any issued US vest I've seen guys wearing.

Yes you are. (wrong that is) Modern Russian soldiers have a variety of camo patterns. Also they are often seen using load bearing vests that emulate the modern style of LBE gear being used by western powers. The uniform looks like the Para Flora pattern of Camo, and the placement of the New Russian flag seems correct.

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/new-p...RA-FLORA-B.jpg

Though the mannequin has pull up boots (which seem to be a classically Russian/Soviet thing) many Russian airborne troops wear lace up boots like nearly every other Army in the world.

YES that's it! Thank you Alcatrazz. The game went away many years ago. I purchased the game with birthday money and a few months later I started dating my future wife. A few years after that she decided to hold a yardsale and the game went away along with my complete collection of the Conan anthology published by Ace and other items from my youth.

Fortunately I held onto to my comicbook collection. I still have that collection though I don't know why I bother. The Wizard says one thing about the various magazines that I own and the comicstores aren't even interested. But in another ten or fifteen years who knows?

Blasphemy! :eek:

I know I know. But I live with her so I had to prioritize. Hey several years later she apologized when she bought me the boxed set of the two Conan movies with Arnold.

Exactly, thanks for backing me up on this. That's an excellent illustration of the inherent difficulties. I've never played Fortress America, but I'm starting to think I should (even though I grew up at a time when board games were going out of style and video games were on the way in).

Supply lines are, indeed, a very huge problem for any military. Land-based invaders have enough trouble protecting their logistics as it is, but sea-based invaders would be a whole other ballgame. But even so, the biggest difficulty I foresee is creating a naval armada with enough aircraft carriers, which is something that's WAY beyond the capabilities of Russia, China, and all the rogue states put together.

In the end you all need to realize something.

Red Dawn is a film for entertainment.
It should not matter whether or not an actual invasion is plausible, its a film -not a documentary.

Yes, that is true. But here's the thing: I'm not the person you need to remind of this fact. The people who need to be reminded are the pro-gunners who I've actually seen using this film as proof of why we need the 2nd Amendment. I'm pretty sure Milius himself takes the idea pretty seriously, knowing what I know about him.

And just a few pages ago, you were talking about how you thought a U.S. invasion by the Russians and Chinese was possible.

I was just going to post that.

Also, does John Millius really think that an invasion on US soil would actually work? I didn't get that from the film. Red Dawn seems to be the total opposite of what neo-cons think war is like.

That's, "neo-con". And given that so many neo-cons are ex-liberals who don't get hot and bothered over the 2nd Amendment, I can't imagine it's a scenario to which they give much thought.

Sorry for the grammar error.

That makes me wonder, is there such a thing as a new-con?

Go back and re-read my post.

I was not defending the plausibility of an Invasion of the Russians and Chinese. I was dispelling Excalibur's naive impression that the North Korean Military is a bunch of pushovers.

Well what has the North Korean military's done recently that's impressive. Numbers isn't everything in an army these days.

Most Armies in the World including the German Bundeswehr, the Chinese PLA, and the Japanese Army have not done anything "impressive" recently, it does not mean that they have no potential.

I'm not going to reiterate ;just go back and read my post about the North Korean Military.

It's been said that in war victory goes to the side that makes the least number of mistakes.

Being very good at logistics can help one to overcome a mistake - even a big one.

It pains me to admit this, but in WWII we (the United States) was actually outfought for much of the war - especially by the Germans on land. Truth be told the Germans were better at tactics and their training and organization was superior. Naval and air were a different story, but I focus on land operations. And I'm talking about the U.S. Army not the Marines.

It really wasn't until the last year of the war (give or take a few months) that the U.S. started to catch up to the Germans. Much of what the U.S. Army changed was based off of what the Germans were doing.

However the Army kept advancing because the U.S. had a superior logistical network. It wasn't just that the United States was able to produce so much stuff, but that the U.S. military was able to get all that cool stuff to the front lines. The U.S. Army had more trucks, more radios, better overall support, an outstanding firecontrol system (artillery) and more airpower.

The Germans frequently outfought us (Battle of the Bulge, Kassarine Pass, Anzio, Mt. Cassino, Hurtegen Forest) but we were able to overcome the Germans by sheer might and we were able to replace our losses. The Germans couldn't.

No I'm not knocking our soldiers. Those American troops fought and fought hard. They fought in horrible conditions and even when they broke and ran they would stop and dig in and fight back. But they didn't have the type of martial tradition that the Germans did. The Germans had learned from WWI and continued to learn. We basically started from scratch in 41 having forgotten everything we learned in WWI.

But ultimately we were better at logistics than the Germans. And that made all the difference. It might not be as ego satisfying but it's the reality.

Yeah, anyone serving their first stretch in prison. :D

That's really clever, Spartan. It made me laugh. Thank you.

I was responding only to the part where you implied that the DPRK with Russian and Chinese might be able to invade the U.S.

Also, I don't think Excalibur is completely wrong. The DPRK's capabilities as a conventional force are fairly limited in spite of their numbers. Most analysts are far more concerned about their secret agents and the possibility of these operatives carrying out terrorist attacks, than they are about the North ever trying to invade the South.

You are 100% right, even though I too must admit it pains me to admit this stuff. The Wehrmacht was, in many ways, far more capable as a fighting force than the U.S. Army. And the Luftwaffe was equally impressive (just compare the kill totals for many of their aces versus ours...it makes our pilots look like amateurs).

In the end, logistics were the deciding factor in the European theater. This, combined with Hitler's choices to open the Eastern front without going after the U.K., was what led to Germany's downfall.

well I'm not going to say it's impossible for them to try.
-whether they would be successful however is a whole different thing.

It is pretty much impossible for them to even contemplate, and none of them do. They didn't during the Cold War, still don't today. I'm sure they'd love to do it, but that's still wishful thinking, and wishful thinking never gets translated into policy.

I'm still standing by my statement.
They can attempt to invade the USA somehow even if their efforts are completely futile. I'm not saying they will ;I'm just saying that it's not impossible for them to try.

But then that's a moot point. It's also not impossible for me to try to score with, say, Hayden Panettiere or Holly Weber. But, assuming I wanted it badly enough, the probability of success is so low that I'm not likely to waste my time trying.

Anyway, let's get back on topic to talking about the movie...

The main thing I'm curious about is what sorts of "Red" military hardware (besides small arms) we're going to see in the remake. As I'm sure y'all remember, the original film featured excellent mock-ups of Mi-24 Hinds, T-72s, BMPs, and ZSU-23/4s. Of course, now that the Cold War is over and ex-Eastern Bloc hardware has been purchased by some of the movie vehicle rental companies, it'll be interesting to see what they put in this movie. I'm expecting T-72s mocked up as T-90s, as I expect that would be an easy vismod.

your talking about the Russians, right.

The PLA's Main Battle Tanks are the Type 99 & Type 96

Type 99>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...front_left.jpg
Type 96>
http://www.ausairpower.net/Type-96-MBT-PLA-1S.jpg

The behind the scenes shots showed an M1 Abrams....but it didn't look very mocked up.

http://www.reddawn2010.com/images/st...big%20tank.jpg

Yeah, for the Russians.

That's one of the mock-up M1s built from a Centurion. And that's kind of weird. Maybe we're supposed to assume that they captured our own equipment and re-painted it for their own use?

Must be, on this HMMWV they just put the Chinese insignia over the American Flag
http://www.reddawn2010.com/images/ph..._pontiac19.jpg

Most likely done to keep the budget down. Not a bad way to save money rather than have mock-ups.

I still can't believe they're remaking the film.

Makes two of us. As I've said, the original should be left as-is. A remake nowadays is absurd.

Anyway, there are already lots of T-55s, T-62s, T-72s, BMPs, etc. available from American military vehicle rental companies. I realize that the Chinese don't use these, but the Russians would use the T-72s at least (which could be made to look like T-90s pretty easily, I should think).

So is this remake supposed to take place in the NOW?

Yes, as implausible as that would seem. The Chinese soldiers are wearing the latest camouflage pattern of the PLA, and there are pictures of fake propaganda posters that make reference to the economic crisis, distrust in the government etc. It seems that the antagonists this time make an active PR effort to gain the support of Americans rather than just engaging in brute force tactics.

IIRC, there are no actual T-72s or BMPs available from movie prop companies in the United States (though there are in Europe). Army Trucks Inc, which is one of the most popular vehicle rental companies for big-budget hollywood movies, does have T-55 tanks though.

I guess I'll watch this movie to laugh at how impossible the plot might be.

Just focus on the guns and explosions like I'm gonna do. ;)

Hmmm, are you sure there are no T-72s over here? I always thought that the one in "Three Kings" was real, and that movie was filmed in the U.S.

And yes, I know about Army Trucks, Inc., but they aren't the only military vehicle rental company in the U.S. (though clearly, they are working on this new version of "Red Dawn", since those M1s we see are their mocked-up Centurions.)

That's a pretty convincing mock-up. How can you tell it's a Centurion?

I'd say the T-72 was a fake, since it is narrower than the real vehicle, taller, has a shorter cannon and the position of the smoke dischargers is wrong. Also, Army Trucks Inc was responsible for the vehicles in that film so it is likely that it was another tank that was modified to resemble a T-72. The only U.S-filmed movie that I can think of that has a genuine T-72 is Transformers, during the scene where Captain Lennox's team is ambushed by Scorponok in the desert, and in that case the tank was wrecked.

Hey, it was still a real T-72, though. :)

First, here's a better picture of it on the set of the movie:

http://www.reddawn2010.com/images/ph...l_p1160350.jpg

See how the undercarriage only six wheels per side? An M1 Abrams has seven. You can also see that it's a little too narrow, and that the engine compartment is a bit taller than a real M1. If you look really closely, you can also see some of the gaps in the turret where the metal plating was welded onto the Centurion's turret.

These mock-up M1s were built originally for the movie "Courage Under Fire". Any movie you've ever seen with an M1 Abrams features these tanks, because in real life, filmmakers can't get access to real M1s unless they get DoD cooperation. So far, "War of the Worlds" and "Transformers 2" are the only movies that have featured real M1s (since the military did cooperate on both). All other movies with M1s use the mocked-up Centurions.

Also, you can see more pics of the tanks at Army Trucks, Inc.'s web site, here:

http://www.armytrucks.com/Tanks_Armored.html