There are documented cases in failures to penetrate, depending on strength/angle of glass. it stands that 308 penetrates deeper, sorry to break it to you. I would not trust a windshield against 556 personally, but if i was firing at a car i'd take an m14 over any m4. Come down to the CG base and tell some of the prior army guys i work with their game kiddies.....

BTW, care to share you massive expertise and experience using 5.56mm weapons in battle?

The 5.56mm round is going at the speed of sound, I think it is more than capable of penetrating a car windshield, as long as it isn't bullet proof.

READ THE BUICK O' TRUTH!

Repeated testing(sure, not with scientific rigor, but still) shows that very few things WILL NOT penetrate a windshield. Hell, the 5.56 will penetrate THE FRIGGIN CAR.

EDIT: Link
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4.htm

The only thing to take into account is the angle of the windshield. A round such as a .38 Special or maybe even some rifle rounds may ricochet off the windshield if it hits at enough of an angle.

I watched this show where they showed that the only place you are really safe from incoming fire when taking cover behind a car is at the front or rear axles (behind the tires) since there is enough to stop the bullets there. But you should stand a few feet from the car so rounds hitting the hood or back won't fragment into you.

I hate how in movies and videogames they show car windshield shatter after being hit by rounds, even though the glass is layered and stuck together with special adhesive, so it would only spider a little bit.

They did a great job with it in GTA 4, actually.
The windshield will not get destroyed unless someone is ejected through it, and the side windows shatter easily(as shown by... THE BOX O' TRUTH!)

However, you can still take cover behind the open door of a car.

Yeah, GTA 4 was great with that. I actually tried to destroy the windshield with gunfire without blowing up the car and it is impossible. Even when you don't blow the car up, weapons fire will never destroy the windshield.

If the car rolls though it may break. The cover system in general didn't factor in what guns can penetrate. You can take cover behind a cardboard box and you'll be okay.

I wish GTA 4 had more guns, it gets boring with the typical selection after a while.

The military is currently working on an intermediate round, as the 5.56 does not have all that much enrgy to play with. At extreme range it loses power, where 7.62mm DMRs come in. Of course I have heard AR fans say an m4 with an acog is a better DMR....yes, really...And even thin obstacles like sheet metal and wood doors have been known to slow the 556 down enough that it isn't delivering enough energy to reliably take down a bad guy. I cant wait to see an intermidiate round, the 6.5 grendel would be good if it didn't jam up so easy.

Ironically the show I was talking about is on right now, American Guardian on the Outdoor Channel, 153 on my Dish Net.

hey, they'll both get the job done.

mikhail made a beauty that has been around for more than 50 years. he wins for withstanding the test of time.

america (fuck yeah) made a gun that needed improvements, then made those so it keeps it perfectly, if not outperforms.

how bout AK in the left hand, Colt in the right? i'm 6'7" and built like a linebacker. i've done it, it's fun, and everyone's happy.

Panwitch,
At your size you are unusually large and I'm betting that alot of weapons are simply put too small for your frame. On the other hand you can use weapons that are larger than what people would usually use comfortably. I have a friend who is 6'4" and his Platoon Commander once had him carry an M-2HB SAS style(Fully Assembled on a tripod) durring a training mission. Normally such a thing is done with a GPMG.

While you can fire low to mid power rifles one handed it's not something that many people have the strenght for.

True. Most guns do look a little smaller in my hands. I have an AMT Hardballer Longslide, which my friends just call the "Joe sized .45".

The M-855 has more then enough penetrating power to blow the brain out of a Soviet solider wearing a hamlet at 600 yards.

You have tunnel version about stopping power like most arm chair commandos. Here the deal, it's not all about stopping power. If it is then life would be a lot easier. I would be shooting 30mm ammo or greater. I can't because there are trade off. It's not a black and white issue.

You know why US SF don't use .30 caliber rifles? Control because in real life there is no 180 degree firing line. Everything is fluid. The firing line reinforced bad habits.

If you go to any combat school they will teach you how to control your weapon so you don't blow your partners brain up.

You train like you fight. Yes they are using live ammo and explosive.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=c...=684&Itemid=39

Sorry i prefer more punch. Sinle, precise shots. I dont rely on rate of fire. And in reality you cant hit everything in the head. .22 holes in the chest dont really drop something hyped up on drugs all that effectively, especially in FMJ form. Good ammo like 75gr TAP may give me more faith...as far a FMJ military ammo and war, Id take a .308. In civilian life too.

All m16 arguments go into the m1a vs ar-15 debate.

"5.56 is more controllable in full auto"

Yeah, cause we can all afford or legally buy class 3s.....

"it's not about caliber, itws about shot placement"
In that case, why not 10/22s? ....Oh, so caliber does matter? Taking back your original stateent?

"With 556 you can carry more ammo"

Well, if i drop things with a single shot instead of a 3 round burst, im using less. Dont need as much.

".308s are heavy."

Yep, an extra pound of rifle....big deal.

Kinetic energy is what is important, commonly called "knock down" power, even though common physics prove bullets don't knock people down. If a bullet stops in the body, it is far more likely to kill you due to the kinetic energy, but if a bullet passes through you, it doesn't hold this same energy. For instance, many people compare 9mm to .45 ACP. A 9mm is a fast moving high velocity round that is quite small. When it hits a person, it doesn't always stop in the body. This is why most people use 9mm hollowpoints. It ensures they stay in the body. The .45 on the other hand is a big, slow moving bullet. When it hits, its kinetic energy is maintained and more damage is done.

I've heard that while .223s are really fast (meaning it would pass through the body) and small, they tend to tumble and shatter in the human body, which does quite a bit of damage. Since it is about 10 rounds more in each magazine for a .223 over a .308, I think I'd stick to .223. But as a Navy Seal once said, "When you give them two in the head and one in the chest, they won't know the difference."

Well, the 223 efffect, shattering is usually close. I remeber hearing m4s only shattered within 120 yards. The m16 fares a little better. An m14 will kill a uy behind a wall though.

I've held an M14 and it is heavy as hell compared to an full length M16. It's about endurance on how long you can hold your rifle, aim it while holding it's weight and getting that shot. If the weapon is too heavy, it doesnt matter if it has accurate and heavy punching ammo if you can't pick it up or hold it against your shoulder for too long

Tell that to WW2 vets. Or vietnam vets. My friends dad was hitting 600 yard silouettes with simple ball ammo and iron sights.

I've known Vietnam vets who are complete BS artists (not to say the guy you know is), for instance, one guy I know was a Marine sniper and every story he told about his service was lifted straight from the biography "Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills" about Carlos Hatchcock. I can't image how he figured none of us would realize this.

The expression "Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes" doesn't apply anymore, I guess, when your popping guys a 600 yards with iron sights. :eek:

600 yard iron siht shots are not quite as realistic in combat, as range targets are set and you ahve alkl the time in the world. My friends dad was a range instructor/boarding team member in the navy and was top m14 marksman in his section. His brother was army in vietnam, carried an m14, and said he kept mags after every fight since they were issuing m16s (SP1s) that he refused to carry. He had to feed it from m60 belts. His stories arent BS, he only tells a few, usually about when a friend saved his life or such. As you can understand, he really doesnt like talking about vietnam.

Yeah I understand. I just felt like informing the forum members about the BS artists.

There are plenty of those, on one forum a guy was claiming he used his single shot .22 to hit squirells at a quarter mile and his 50bmg build to hit gophers between 1 and 1.5 miles.

Christ you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reread what I posted. I didn't mention one word about full auto. I mention control and double tap. Do you know what double tap is? Two quick shot two pull of the trigger. You don't go burst or full auto as other people posted on this thread. The only time you do it is to maintain suppression.

See that video on that I posted. They didn't use full auto or burst they use semi-auto. It trigger manipulations. That's one of the things that they teach you in combat class, trigger manipulation and gun control.

What happen when a 22lr hit the heart. The same thing happen when a .50 caliber hit the heart. The same thing happen when a .30 caliber hit the heart. 30 seconds or less to live.

Do you actually think one shot of .30 caliber will drop a guy? Have you seen a person that got hit multiple times with 30mm cannon and still moving? 30mm is twice as big as a .50 cal and is consider heavy weapon.

Do you actually think that every shot you pull will hit the target just like in the movies? You're living in a fantasy world. That's not real combat. In Vietnam for every 100,000 round fired we got one kill. In the first Gulf War we cut that down to 10,000 rounds for every one kill. The 10,000 to 1 is the best in the world.

Im not basing that on only your post, ive seen this debate say....evryday on other forums. That said I dont think 308 is the best round, just better than 5.56mm. Id personally want a intermediate caliber but the 6.8 isn't really living up to the hype (the 77gr 5.56 military round delivers equal energy) and 6.5 grendel doesn't feed reliably. I dont like the Ar system. Some people are obsessed with them. Some people like AKs somehow. If 223 was so powerful there wouldnt be so many states banning the for use on deer.