Questions

[Pointy Sextant]

I am writing a book at the moment, and the Ciener Silenced Ruger Mark II intrigues me as the side arm for one of my central characters. As this site is associated with several actual gunsmiths, I thought I'd ask my questions here.

1. Can the Ruger Mark II be fired with non standard .22 ammunition such as high velocity rounds?

2. Can the Mark 3 be fitted with the same kinds of silencers as the Mark 2?

3. Just how silent is the Ruger when suppressed? Do any of the guns moving parts still produce significant audible noise, or is really and effectively silenced?

4. Is the Ruger Mark 2 with the Ciener silencer in this sites photos nickel plated or chrome finished or some such or is that the standard color of the gun?

5. Would you describe hitting someone in the skull with a Ruger Mark 2 or 3 from six blocks away as inconceivable, or physically impossible?

[Gunmaster45]

Planning to kill someone? 6 blocks is really pushing it for a .22, especially a handgun.

Most .22 handguns, including the Mk II handle high velocity rounds with ease. The bests IMO are Velocitors.

I believe the suppressor for the Mk II can be fitted to a Mk III, but some fitting may be required.

A suppressed .22 handgun automatic is ~ 50-60 Dec. This is including the air exiting the muzzle, the slide cycling and the empty casing ejecting. Using subsonic ammunition, such as high velocities, makes it even louder.

I'm pretty sure the gun on the site is all stainless.

Hope I helped. Don't consider me an accessory. :)

[Yournamehere]

I think you mean supersonic rounds make the gun louder, as they break the sound barrier. Subsonic bullets don't and are inherently better for silenced weapons.

Also, a .22 is a poor choice for a distant kill, especially when something is attached to it that lowers it's velocity. Most of them are seen used at point blank range in movies. If I could suggest a different gun, give him a .45 of some sort. Not sure on the sound it makes, but it's subsonic, so it can't be too loud.

[MT2008]

I should also point out that the term "silencer" is one of those words that, like using "clip" to describe what is actually a "magazine", should be banished from the vocabulary of firearms jargon forever. :)

[Yournamehere]

While it isn't what many consider the perfectly accurate term, I don't think it's in league with the word clip in it's inaccuracy. A clip is a completely different mechanism than a magazine, as well as a slang term for magazine, where the term silencer, although slang, means the same thing as "sound suppressor." If anything it's better to say silencer as there are other types of suppressors, and saying sound suppressor is a mouthful. Sometimes you can cut corners with good enough words, granted that they're not completely wrong.

[Gunmaster45]

I meant supersonic, not subsonic. My head was elsewhere.

I missed the first sentence of the original post, so my mistake for questioning homicidal sounding questions. Oops.

[MT2008]

While it isn't what many consider the perfectly accurate term, I don't think it's in league with the word clip in it's inaccuracy. A clip is a completely different mechanism than a magazine, as well as a slang term for magazine, where the term silencer, although slang, means the same thing as "sound suppressor." If anything it's better to say silencer as there are other types of suppressors, and saying sound suppressor is a mouthful. Sometimes you can cut corners with good enough words, granted that they're not completely wrong.

True, but the fact is that "silencer" is a fairly inaccurate description of what a sound suppressor does.

Also, I usually just say "suppressor" myself, which isn't any more of a "mouthful" than saying "silencer".

[Nyles]

I have to chime in on that 6 block headshot - unless the blocks in your city are alot shorter than in mine, that is 100% impossible with a handgun, .22 or otherwise. An exceptional shot might manage a headshot at 100 yards on a stationary target - your average shooter has trouble hitting center mass at 300 yards with an open-sighted rifle.

[Pointy Sextant]

I have to chime in on that 6 block headshot - unless the blocks in your city are alot shorter than in mine, that is 100% impossible with a handgun, .22 or otherwise. An exceptional shot might manage a headshot at 100 yards on a stationary target - your average shooter has trouble hitting center mass at 300 yards with an open-sighted rifle.

The point of the shot is that the character making it is possessed of inhuman abilities. Is the shot impossible because the bullet won't go the distance because of simple physics, super sonic or sub sonic no matter which, or because the skill required is impossible? The former requires a rewrite, the latter is a-ok.

And in response to the first question no, I'm not planning on killing anybody, but the clean lines and simplicity of the Ruger are attractive to me from a writing standpoint and the underpowered nature of the round seems to me to only accentuate the skill of a killer using it. However, if no .22 caliber round is capable of reasonable armor penetration, then I'll have to upgrade to a more reasonable handgun.

The idea here is that the shooter involved does things with the pistol that are seemingly impossible but still within the realm of physical possibility. If that is not true, than I need to find another weapon that will serve my purposes.

More specifically on why I like the Ruger as a silenced handgun because of the snub, close fitting almost integrated suppressor. The suppressor just replacing the barrel and not fitting onto the end of the barrel.

In the world of speculative gun alternatives, how does the Sig Sauer P220 and so on work on range fire, and what can be worked with silencers?

Also, I like the look of the integrated compensator on the Sig Sport. Now I understand that the idea of the silencer and the compensator clash pretty completely, but I'm willing to sacrifice the silenced aspect for the long range shot, which brings me to my next question. How would a full metal jacket, .45 ACP round smelted entirely out of Tungsten work for penetration on body armor, material, and soft targets?

Last edit. Could a silencer with an improvised Nielson device increase work on a smaller caliber handgun or just on browning style weapons and above?

[Nyles]

A .22 round will go that far (at least out of a rifle), but no handgun has the accuracy to do that. It's not a question of skill, even if it's completley immobilised in a mechanical rest and you've got a ballistic computer handy, it simply does not have the intrinsic accuracy to make that shot. Handguns are handguns and rifles are rifles.

Although even with a rifle that's a hell of a shot - all false modesty aside, in the military I'm considered an above average marksman. Using an open-sighted rifle (specifically a C7 or SA80A2) I can knock down a man sized target at 300 meters all day long, anything much further is pushing it. Combat-type scope (3.4X C79A1 or 4X SUSAT) helps, but not by that much.

As for the .45ACP round, assuming you're talking about a solid tungsten round (an FMJ bulley is, by definition, not a single piece of solid metal), it's not going to penetrate body armor with a trauma plate - that's a low velocity round with a low ballsitic coefficient. It's doesn't do range or penetration well. At normal handgun range it'll penetrate the bodywork on a car, most interior walls, but nothing really solid. A standard 230-grain .45ACP FMJ round will barely dent 3/4" aluminum (in fact, of all the varied handguns I've tried, only a 7.62mm Tokarev comes close to penetrating - very close, in fact), and I very much doubt that a steel or tungsten cored round would do much better. Small and fast rounds penetrate, big slow ones don't.

A Neilson device (just a muzzle booster, really) applies to recoil-operated locked breech firearms only, which these days are pretty much only (most) pistols of 9mm Luger calibre and above. A smaller pistol is usually straight blowback with a fixed barrel, which aren't effected by the additional weight of a supressor anyways.

[Pointy Sextant]

A .22 round will go that far (at least out of a rifle), but no handgun has the accuracy to do that. It's not a question of skill, even if it's completley immobilised in a mechanical rest and you've got a ballistic computer handy, it simply does not have the intrinsic accuracy to make that shot. Handguns are handguns and rifles are rifles.

Although even with a rifle that's a hell of a shot - all false modesty aside, in the military I'm considered an above average marksman. Using an open-sighted rifle (specifically a C7 or SA80A2) I can knock down a man sized target at 300 meters all day long, anything much further is pushing it. Combat-type scope (3.4X C79A1 or 4X SUSAT) helps, but not by that much.

As for the .45ACP round, assuming you're talking about a solid tungsten round (an FMJ bulley is, by definition, not a single piece of solid metal), it's not going to penetrate body armor with a trauma plate - that's a low velocity round with a low ballsitic coefficient. It's doesn't do range or penetration well. At normal handgun range it'll penetrate the bodywork on a car, most interior walls, but nothing really solid. A standard 230-grain .45ACP FMJ round will barely dent 3/4" aluminum (in fact, of all the varied handguns I've tried, only a 7.62mm Tokarev comes close to penetrating - very close, in fact), and I very much doubt that a steel or tungsten cored round would do much better. Small and fast rounds penetrate, big slow ones don't.

A Neilson device (just a muzzle booster, really) applies to recoil-operated locked breech firearms only, which these days are pretty much only (most) pistols of 9mm Luger calibre and above. A smaller pistol is usually straight blowback with a fixed barrel, which aren't effected by the additional weight of a supressor anyways.

So conceivably, my marksman could equip himself with an Eastern Bloc pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev, construct his own rounds out of tungsten or some other high density or extremely hard metal, and be fairly confident in penetration? If so, my next question is accuracy.

What would you say is the most accurate and dependable modern pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev round, or is it strictly speaking a round one does not depend on for accuracy?

The Russian aspect is perfectly workable as the story has its roots in the Chechen War and this fits perfectly into the larger framework of the narrative.

What's more, what books would you gentlemen recommend I purchase to research the inner workings and functions of fire arms in detail, as well as the state of the modern fire arm?

[Nyles]

Well, the only two worth mentionning are the Tokarev TT-33 and the Czech vz.52. Of the two, the Tokarev is alot handier and (contrary to what you'll sometimes read on the net) stronger, but the vz.52 actually has a safety and tends to be more accurate. Of course neither is what you'd call modern.

They're plenty accurate, considering how they're made, but they won't compete with a modern gun.

You might want to check out theboxoftruth.com. There's alot of good articles there that'll explain what guns can and can't do, and there's a good article on the cz.52 in there as well.

[Ultraussie]

Dont watse your time with .22, get a bloody 9mm or something.
BTW, Rugers suck except for full auto Mini14

[Gunmaster45]

Rugers don't suck. They are fine guns (my first handgun was a Ruger Mk II, a very fine plinker). I've been reading some of your comments, you definately have your opinions. Some of them are a little one sided though. Calibers differ from shooter to shooter. A .22 is good for short to medium ranges if a head shot is possible. Control is very easy, stopping power is poor (it is a great suppressed gun because of the quietness and short action). 9mm is the intermediate sized round. Fast but deadly. It isn't a "man stopper" because it can go straight through a man and all the kinetic energy is lost. Large rounds like 10mm and .45 ACP are cumbersome and some shooters can't control the recoil but the rounds are slow and stop in the target, maximizing stopping power (but knocking a man off his feet is pure BS). I think for an assassin, exotic rounds like 5.7x28mm seem interesting. They are great for body armor but suffer the same flaw as the 9mm. I'm a .45 man myself, but no round is perfect.

[Nyles]

Have you ever actually shot a Mini-14? No offense to anyone who owns them, they make a decent truck gun, but it's just about the most inaccurate new rifle on the market today, and I've handled Chinese guns with better fit and finish. In fact the Mini-14 is just about the only bad firearm Ruger makes (as bad as the ergonomics on the P89 are, they sure do shoot).

Ruger .22s are great pistols - the Mk.III is basically indestructible. I was talking to a guy who owns a rental range and he told be they see 1000s of rounds a week with limited cleaning and he hasn't had one wear out yet.

[Gunmaster45]

I have one of the older style Ruger Ranch rifle Mini-14s, blued. I heard the older models had a weak bolt so I have some spares. I think they are a great shooting gun, although they can be a little inaccurate. As a home defense gun, accuracy can be over come when you have a few fully loaded pre-ban 40 round mags.

[Pointy Sextant]

As of now in my research I've come across both the FN Five-Seven and the HK UCP. These pistols seem tailor made for my exact writing purposes based on my reading of their capabilities so far. Is this an accurate judgment? If so, then the weapons of the gun runners are my next question.

Primarily I would like to shy away from the usual Russian and Israeli firearms used by gangsters for my exotic gunrunners. I've found the Singaporean weapons to be interesting, as well as the latest generation firearms from Fabrique Nationale like the FN 2000. Seeing as these are all military weapons, how vast a conspiracy would I need to create to properly equip a small organiation of criminals and mercenaries with the latest military equipment from these divergent sources?

I'm also curious as to the small arms qualities of the XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon System. Not just its qualities as a simple grenade launcher, but as a varied munitions launcher and material delivery system.

I am also curious as to the material density, hardness, and flexibility required to resist the safe firing of a 9mm parabellum round. The concept of an actual gun capable of passing through airport scanning intrigues me, and it seems to me that you would have to build the entire assembly from an exotic polymer or ceramic as well as the bullets. What interests me is whether or not the construction of such a weapon is actually possible considering the fact that no one seems to have done it yet, and I really can't be the first person to come up with the idea along these lines.

[MT2008]

As of now in my research I've come across both the FN Five-Seven and the HK UCP. These pistols seem tailor made for my exact writing purposes based on my reading of their capabilities so far. Is this an accurate judgment? If so, then the weapons of the gun runners are my next question.

I would avoid having them use the H&K UCP, because it's not in production yet (to the best of my knowledge).


Primarily I would like to shy away from the usual Russian and Israeli firearms used by gangsters for my exotic gunrunners. I've found the Singaporean weapons to be interesting, as well as the latest generation firearms from Fabrique Nationale like the FN 2000. Seeing as these are all military weapons, how vast a conspiracy would I need to create to properly equip a small organiation of criminals and mercenaries with the latest military equipment from these divergent sources?

I don't think you'd need much of a "conspiracy" at all. The FN Five-Seven and semi-automatic versions of the F2000 rifle and P90 submachine gun can be purchased at gun stores in the U.S. (the FS2000s and PS90s could possibly be converted to full-auto, assuming your gunrunners had well-trained armorers able to do the conversion work for them).

There are already drug cartels in Mexico whose gunmen have acquired these weapons by having cousins or girlfriends in Texas buy them and then smuggle them across the border. When I was an intern at Stratfor, in fact, I did some research on this as part of an article that was published in one of the Mexico security briefs.

[Pointy Sextant]

I would avoid having them use the H&K UCP, because it's not in production yet (to the best of my knowledge).

I'm willing to place this in the future a few years, I was already planning on including the XM25.

I don't think you'd need much of a "conspiracy" at all. The FN Five-Seven and semi-automatic versions of the F2000 rifle and P90 submachine gun can be purchased at gun stores in the U.S. (the FS2000s and PS90s could possibly be converted to full-auto, assuming your gunrunners had well-trained armorers able to do the conversion work for them).

There are already drug cartels in Mexico whose gunmen have acquired these weapons by having cousins or girlfriends in Texas buy them and then smuggle them across the border. When I was an intern at Stratfor, in fact, I did some research on this as part of an article that was published in one of the Mexico security briefs.

But what about the availability of the Singaporean weapons? And for clarities sake, the assassin and the gang of gunrunners of mercenaries are two separate groups. The assassin is not someone I'm worried about explaining getting firearms to, but I want to be realistic about how I put the weapons in the hands of the syndicate.

[MT2008]

I'm willing to place this in the future a few years, I was already planning on including the XM25.

Fair enough, although personally, I'm of the opinion that the 4.6x30mm is basically shit compared to the 5.7x28mm used by FN's weapons. Part of the reason the UCP is so far behind schedule is because of the relatively disappointing reception that the MP7 has received, and the reason for that is because many LE departments think the 4.6x30 is a joke.

I'm also doubtful the XM25 will ever go into production, let alone be adopted. Certainly not in a few years. H&K has a terrible track record when it comes to U.S. military contracts. Chances are, the XM25 is going to go the way of nearly every weapon that H&K has submitted to the DoD for testing...to the grave.


But what about the availability of the Singaporean weapons?

Which ones do you mean specifically? I'm guessing the SAR-21 and Ultimax machine gun? Well, the simplest answer is...there are always corrupt military and law enforcement officers willing to line their pockets by selling weaponry. Especially in an authoritarian country like Singapore.

Then there's the fact that Singapore has sold small arms to governments that are currently engaged in wars or which would not be likely to do a good job accounting for weapons. For instance, the Sri Lankan Army is currently engaged in a war with the rebel Tamil Tiger (LTTE) organization, though they seem to be close to winning. The SLA's special forces use Singaporean weapons in minor numbers, including the SAR-21 and Ultimax.

If I were writing your book, I would say it's possible that the LTTE could have captured some of these weapons from the SLA, and kept them in their arms caches. The fact that the Sri Lankan Civil War is drawing to a close (as we speak) means that a few years in the future, the LTTE could be demobilizing and participating in a peace process to gain legitimacy as a political party in Sri Lanka. Seeing as the organization has 10,000+ fighters, that's a lot of weaponry they'd have left over. So conceivably, certain Tigers might sell some of the LTTE's weapons stocks on the black market. Including the SAR-21s and Ultimax LMGs.

But whatever. I'm not a novelist.

[Pointy Sextant]

Well this thread has been very helpful so far but I have two further questions.

I am well aware that a "stealth" pistol or firearm, meaning one that can evade metal detectors, does not exist. Even if you were to make a fire arm entirely out of plastics, the bullets would show up. And even those firearms made of plastics in existence are so dense that they do show up on image scanners. However, my I wonder if an extremely hard ceramic could be used not just for the body and mechanics of the gun, but also for the bullets. However this raises a few questions. Would standard gunpowder show up on these scans, would a useful ceramic or light but sturdy plastic show up on these scans, and would it be possible to make a bullet of any use?

My second question is related to the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth. I like it as a concealable weapon, but for my purposes it would be less useful without a silencer. However I can not determine if a silencer for the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth exists or if it would be appropriate considering the nature of the gun. If the Rohrbaugh-R9s Stealth is not appropriate for a silencer, then I would be interested in a similar handgun, not necessarily chambered in 9mm, that would be appropriate for a silencer and would be easily concealed.

[k9870]

Walther ppk or sig p230/232

[Gunmaster45]

Perhaps a Glock 26? If you put a G19 barrel on it and use a threading drill, you could adapt it for a suppressor I suppose. Not super exotic, but still a decent pocket gun none-the-less. A good suppressor adds 3-4" to the barrel though, so I'd assume the person would have to thread it on after drawing it?

I was writing a screenplay at one point (which I haven't worked on in awhile, I think I'm going to start over) and I wanted one of the killers to use a Shansi Type 17 with a barrel adapted for a suppressor. Wierd guns like that fascinate me and I like seeing something rare on the screen.

Personally I don't like the PPK pistols because I got some serious slide bite the last time I shot one. I figure a P230/232 would do the same so I'd avoid both myself.

[k9870]

I love c96 style guns.
I like out of the ordinary, different guns.
Thats why i have no affetcion for glocks, not all that different, and boring
If i wrote a script the characters would carry signature weapons to fit their personality

[Gunmaster45]

Yeah, Glocks are kind of boring but I still like them.

Signature weapons make a movie great. Except in Wanted. For some reason I didn't give a rat's ass that everyone had their cool guns. Except Fox's 1911.

If I wrote a ton of stories, my main character would always use a 1911. It's like a sickness for me, nothing looks right other than a 1911. Whether it is customized or something else, they always are first choice for story characters.

One idea I had for a story was a guy who was given two blessed M1911A1s (don't want to get religous too much though, so mayeb some african witch doctor blessed them) but they never run out of ammo, jam, over heat or break. Of course they would be WWII era Colts, because those are the iconic 1911s IMO.

I figured if the story actually made it to become a movie, I would use normal M1911A1s for loading and non-firing scenes, but use Colt slides on modified Para-Ordnance frames so they could fire more rounds at a time without quick cuts. I'd have to pick a big handed protagonist actor so the wide grips could be well hidden though.

What do you guys think?

[k9870]

Last man standing made me lagh with those 1911s, yo really don't want "blessed 1911s" Reloads also look cool, remember. The Colt/Para cross sounds cool though,

Wanted was a truly awful movie, BTW.

Gunmaster, if you were a movie character, what would you be armed with?

I think a Dan Wesson Valor with a sp-101 .327 as backup would be mine, the Dan Wesson loaded with good 8 round mags like Wilson combat. The .327 is good since it delivers more punch than 38 and less recoil in a small frame than .357 mag, which is qite brutal.

[ManiacallyChallenged]

Wanted... awful?
I thought it was stupid as all get out, but funny to watch.
It's the kind of movie where you remove your brain for a few hours, and revel in the absurdity.

[k9870]

Im waiting for when the first casualty from that stupid bullet bending stunt happens

"dont worry amn, i can bend the bullet"

I really dont want to be the officer responding to that some day

[Gunmaster45]

Of course I'd use a custom 1911 (customized as I see fit). I'm a sucker for the 1911s. I'd trust one with my life, so as a character I'd trust it two-fold. In my opinion a character has more depth when he either carries a gun of sentimental value or is custom built. That's why I loved the Punisher so much.

I had another movie idea that's a little less far fetched. A cop upsets a gang and in return they murder his pregnant girlfriend so he resigns and goes out to kill them all. It's a little cliche but I had a lot of interesting ideas and scenes for it. (one was a guy checking a sliding mail slot to see a .45 muzzle and a sudden flash from the protaganist).

I have a question, they say the .327 Federal Magnum allows you to fire 6 shots instead of 5 in a Ruger SP101. Why can't you load six .357 mags in an SP101, is the pressure build up too great or something?

Wow, I'm random!

[k9870]

Small frame, they can't make the cylinder hold 6, at least not with walls thick enough for the 357.

I like revolvers a lot, there needs to be at least one. Theres the backup sp101, and possibley a 627PC 5'' on the bedstand?
Then theres the collection of firearms said character will ahve built up, cstomized to them.

[Gunmaster45]

No, what I mean is they say even with six chambers, you can't load more than 5, and I was wondering why this is.

[k9870]

People are stupid. Its just as safe as any DA revolver. Ive heard people say you can't carry chambered. Mos people are just not up on their gns. If yo have a 327, load it pp, all six.

[ManiacallyChallenged]

"(one was a guy checking a sliding mail slot to see a .45 muzzle and a sudden flash from the protaganist)."

HELL.
YES.
Bad Guy:"Did I get any mail today?"
BLAM
Protagonist: ".50 Action EXPRESS MAIL. PS: FUCK YOU!"

[k9870]

a 45 that shoots 50, woah!

[Gunmaster45]

Yeah, you've got a bit of a continuity error.

By the time I'd get to make this movie, the story concept would be played BEYOND death. (I just watched Taken btw, so I feel like my story has no originallity now, even though the stories are still different.)

I figured the protaganist would knock on the door, the guard would go "Who is it?!" and then he'd knock again. He'd open the sliding mail slot to look and see and BLAM! a big flash as a .45 goes through his eye. Then... then I have to figure out how he opens the damn door and starts the firefight. Crap.

If it has a sliding slot, it would be steel, so kicking it down wouldn't work. I guess he could shoot the lock but the action would kind of slow down after that.

[k9870]

Gunmaster, I really hope you become a director, we'd have cool (and realistic) gunfights.

[Gunmaster45]

I'd push for cameos too! A down-to-earth director gets to point himselg out in the DVD commentary. :D Plus I'd get to show off my gun handling skills without showing what a crappy actor I am :P.

[k9870]

Id love to be in a movie sometime, doubt it will happen in a LE career, the most i can hope for is newscasters interviewing me after some incident.

[MT2008]

I've actually had a couple of movie cameos. I dunno if anyone noticed, but on the "Kiss The Girls" page in the discussion section, I mentioned that I was in that movie. And I was actually on-set with Morgan Freeman, too.

[k9870]

You have a pic of the scene with you in it?

[Gunmaster45]

I've actually had a couple of movie cameos. I dunno if anyone noticed, but on the "Kiss The Girls" page in the discussion section, I mentioned that I was in that movie. And I was actually on-set with Morgan Freeman, too.


That's awesome! How did you come across this opportunity?

[MT2008]

That's awesome! How did you come across this opportunity?

Quite a bit of the movie was filmed on location in NC (but not at UNC, which turned them away), including the scene at the beginning which supposedly takes place in DC. Local extras were used on some scenes. However, some scenes - especially re-shoots - supposedly taking place in NC were also done elsewhere (Canada). One thing I'm still lamenting to this day is how they mix footage of the Duke and UNC campuses to confuse viewers into thinking they're the same school.

The thing is, after many years of looking over a copy of the film on VHS, I'm fairly certain that the most you see of me in the movie is the back of my head and my right arm during the opening scene. So it's barely even a "cameo". At one point in filming, the camera did pass in front of my face, but as best I can tell, any footage showing me clearly was left on the editing room floor. I was very disappointed (because I was about 11 at the time) that I didn't appear visibly.

But at least I got Morgan Freeman's autograph on a Tar Heel basketball. :D

[ManiacallyChallenged]

Ooops, I did write .45 instead of .50
The joke must have changed halfway through writing it.
But if you do make movies, please please please don't ignore misfires. I find it so ridiculous when someone's gun jams or runs out, and they are firing it again a millisecond later.

[Gunmaster45]

Trust me, I would never allow that to happen. Also, I'd use realistic gun fire (echoes outside, short and deafening inside), have the actors fake recoil (properly), and have them take firearms training course or teach them myself how to handle a firearm properly. Unless they are some dumbass drug dealer character. Then they can do what they want, since it would be realistic for them to know nothing.

[Pointy Sextant]

The character with the concealed weapon is a less than sentimental man. He is pretty much just a killer with larger intentions who sees his guns as a means to an end, so efficacy is my ideal here. Exotic fire arms however would play in well as being part of the thread of him making it difficult to track his weapon purchases until after he has made his kills.

Threading the silencer on after pulling it works perfectly for my character, as preparation, and advanced timing are absolute components of this character, and his method. So the question becomes, what silencer pistol combo is best for efficacy and concealability? The goal here is for a man who naturally blends in not to raise any flags until after the fact, so a minimal disruption of his profile would be best, but I can write in some tricky little extra pocket or some such thing if necessary to ad some flair.

[Gunmaster45]

You can't suppress a revolver, but maybe a 4" Smith & Wesson 500 would suit him, since it will definately stop whomever he wants it to.

The only gun I could think of being "exotic" is the FN Five-seveN, since the round isn't super common and is good for body armor. Ever other compact gun I can think of is either too typical or too boring.

[Pointy Sextant]

The character with the concealed weapon is a less than sentimental man. He is pretty much just a killer with larger intentions who sees his guns as a means to an end, so efficacy is my ideal here. Exotic fire arms however would play in well as being part of the thread of him making it difficult to track his weapon purchases until after he has made his kills.

Threading the silencer on after pulling it works perfectly for mt character, as preparation, and advanced timing are absolute components of this character, and his method. So the question becomes, what silencer pistol combo is best for efficacy and concealability? The goal here is for a man who naturally blends in not to raise any flags until after the fact, so a minimal disruption of his profile would be best, but I can write in some tricky little extra pocket or some such thing if necessary to ad some flair.

As for the Shansi type 17, could the barrel be retrofitted with an inbuilt suppressor? This question extends to all of these guns. In truth, my preference is to guns with a more modern feel and cleaner lines, at least for this character, but for the ceramic man, any gun model will do.

Another question. I swear that I was watching the history channel while eating Thai food at like 4 in the morning a while ago, and that the guy leading the show people through the fire arms demonstrations showed off a .22 pistol with a 30 or so round capacity that fired in automatic. Now I could easily have the numbers wrong, but I swear he was demonstrating an automatic .22 pistol. Now this may have been under the influence of Panang curry from a place famous for it's hot curry, but I am so certain I saw this pistol. He pointed the pistol at a target paper, pulled the trigger, and the damn thing just flew apart. Now someone on this board must know what I am talking about.

[k9870]

Five sevens arent exotic, they are quite common, hell 5.7x28mm is the only pistol caliber i can find around here, it is expensive though, and armor piercing stuff isnt sold. A 7.62x25mm will pierce armor, libs just dont see a need to go after a cz-52 or tt33.

Most .22s are also pretty big, and rimfires arent combat reliable, mostly do to ammo. Id go centerfire.

And a nagant revolver can be silenced, the rounds just wimpy, 157 ft lbs in a fmj....

[ManiacallyChallenged]

Nagant revolver....
that's the one that moves the cylinder up with each shot right? Better chamber seal... makes sense.
But it has a 20lb trigger pull in double action, that's got to be punishing.

As for Five-seveN, I have loved that thing for a long time now, but I guess blanks don't do too well in it.

[k9870]

The 5.7 pistol is underpowered, its basically a .22 amg in stopping power. It is accurate as anything though, my friend hits the 100 yard target with his

[Gunmaster45]

After watching Taken, the Taurus Millenium Pro looks pretty interesting. A subcompact in .45 isn't bad, and with an extended barrel it could be suppressed.

Personally, If I was a bare basics assassin that wan't a good gun to get the job done, obviously some type of 1911 would be my choice. Just extend the barrel and thread it for a suppressor. Even a compact or subcompact version from someone like Para-Ordnance would work.

[k9870]

Well, the problem is 45 doesn't seem to work well in subcompacts. One assasins pistol that seems interesting is the Russian (PSS?) that's ammunition contains a piston so it is silent, without a silencer! No extra size or bulk.

[Gunmaster45]

Yeah it's the PSS. It was in MGS4. The gun looks like a piece of crap though, regardless of the neat piston suppression system.

[jdun]

The character with the concealed weapon is a less than sentimental man. He is pretty much just a killer with larger intentions who sees his guns as a means to an end, so efficacy is my ideal here. Exotic fire arms however would play in well as being part of the thread of him making it difficult to track his weapon purchases until after he has made his kills.

Threading the silencer on after pulling it works perfectly for mt character, as preparation, and advanced timing are absolute components of this character, and his method. So the question becomes, what silencer pistol combo is best for efficacy and concealability? The goal here is for a man who naturally blends in not to raise any flags until after the fact, so a minimal disruption of his profile would be best, but I can write in some tricky little extra pocket or some such thing if necessary to ad some flair.

As for the Shansi type 17, could the barrel be retrofitted with an inbuilt suppressor? This question extends to all of these guns. In truth, my preference is to guns with a more modern feel and cleaner lines, at least for this character, but for the ceramic man, any gun model will do.

Another question. I swear that I was watching the history channel while eating Thai food at like 4 in the morning a while ago, and that the guy leading the show people through the fire arms demonstrations showed off a .22 pistol with a 30 or so round capacity that fired in automatic. Now I could easily have the numbers wrong, but I swear he was demonstrating an automatic .22 pistol. Now this may have been under the influence of Panang curry from a place famous for it's hot curry, but I am so certain I saw this pistol. He pointed the pistol at a target paper, pulled the trigger, and the damn thing just flew apart. Now someone on this board must know what I am talking about.

Almost all semi auto pistol can be converted to fully automatic. It's simple and wore out guns can something go automatic. There are safety concern tho.

The barrel must be thread in order to put a suppressor. The fastest way is to buy a drop in threaded barrel.

You don't want exotic weapons because they can be easily traced back to the maker and then to the buyer. If you want to make it realistic I suggest common firearms. Otherwise it fine.

If you don't want want him to be tracked, have him make his own weapons. Anyone that has the time and a working brain can clone any modern weapons. It isn't hard to do.

One more thing, the Rohrbaugh R9S are pocket/back up guns (BUG). They aren't design for heavy uses and whatever the manufactures said they won't last more then few thousands rounds.

[Pointy Sextant]

Almost all semi auto pistol can be converted to fully automatic. It's simple and wore out guns can something go automatic. There are safety concern tho.

The barrel must be thread in order to put a suppressor. The fastest way is to buy a drop in threaded barrel.

You don't want exotic weapons because they can be easily traced back to the maker and then to the buyer. If you want to make it realistic I suggest common firearms. Otherwise it fine.

If you don't want want him to be tracked, have him make his own weapons. Anyone that has the time and a working brain can clone any modern weapons. It isn't hard to do.

One more thing, the Rohrbaugh R9S are pocket/back up guns (BUG). They aren't design for heavy uses and whatever the manufactures said they won't last more then few thousands rounds.

Excellent points.

My mentioning of the shansi was largely because I met a man somewhat recently who has somehow come into possession of one and showed it to me at a firing range. I was quite impressed by its suppression, and though my real world experience with guns is limited, but my understanding was that guns, by and large wee generally much louder when silenced than movies and TV would have the ignorant masses like myself believe.

My inexperience with firearms in mind, I am just about finished with my research. I have familiarized myself with a number of different things, learned a number of different things, including how to use a garrote properly from my neighbor who is significantly more intimidating now, but two things remain.

1. I think I need to look into a firearms modeling and/or design program to get a clear outsiders perspective for firearms. I would prefer a program with a range from small to at least medium arms for the full range of what I have in mind.

2. I think I need to buy at least one gun and get a realistic sense for how firearms handle on a personal level, how they sound, and how aiming and such work. As such, a little advice on my first gun would be greatly appreciated. I was thinking something small and harmless like a .22 unless that wouldn't give me a real feel for gun play. If so, what exactly should I be thinking about buying? And do I need to buy a gun? Do they have rentals or loaners at firing ranges that I could use on a consistent basis so that I could get a feel for a single gun and would that be a good plan?

[Gunmaster45]

Almost all semi auto pistol can be converted to fully automatic. It's simple and wore out guns can something go automatic. There are safety concern tho.

IF the autosear gets worn it can also fire full auto. The guy at my hunter's saefty course told me how his shotgun fired all five shots when the sear got worn down. It was replaced but he never trusted it again.

[Pointy Sextant]

IF the autosear gets worn it can also fire full auto. The guy at my hunter's saefty course told me how his shotgun fired all five shots when the sear got worn down. It was replaced but he never trusted it again.

That sounds like it would be more than a little frightening.

[Gunmaster45]

Maybe I'm wierd but it sounds fun. If you weren't expecting it it could suck but if you knew your shotgun fired full auto, I'd put time in my schedule for that bit of fun.

[jdun]

Excellent points.

My mentioning of the shansi was largely because I met a man somewhat recently who has somehow come into possession of one and showed it to me at a firing range. I was quite impressed by its suppression, and though my real world experience with guns is limited, but my understanding was that guns, by and large wee generally much louder when silenced than movies and TV would have the ignorant masses like myself believe.

My inexperience with firearms in mind, I am just about finished with my research. I have familiarized myself with a number of different things, learned a number of different things, including how to use a garrote properly from my neighbor who is significantly more intimidating now, but two things remain.

1. I think I need to look into a firearms modeling and/or design program to get a clear outsiders perspective for firearms. I would prefer a program with a range from small to at least medium arms for the full range of what I have in mind.

2. I think I need to buy at least one gun and get a realistic sense for how firearms handle on a personal level, how they sound, and how aiming and such work. As such, a little advice on my first gun would be greatly appreciated. I was thinking something small and harmless like a .22 unless that wouldn't give me a real feel for gun play. If so, what exactly should I be thinking about buying? And do I need to buy a gun? Do they have rentals or loaners at firing ranges that I could use on a consistent basis so that I could get a feel for a single gun and would that be a good plan?

I can assure you that .22lr isn't harmless. The Israeli use them successfully against terrorists. Lots of SF commandos has .22lr rifles and pistols in their armory.

My favorite caliber is .22lr. I shoot between 50,000 to 100,000 a year when I was very active in shooting and young. Now a days around 25,000 to 30,000.

Yes most gun range has pistols (and some might have rifles) for loan. However you have to buy their overpriced ammo to use them.

Firearms are good investments. For personal safety as well as financial. Firearms do not lose much of their value if any over time even if used. So you should buy at least one pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

For first time shooter I suggest you load one round into the magazine so you know how the recoil feels. After that load as much as you like. Everybody gets nervous the first time but after that, like everything else a non-event.

You probably going to shoot a pistol first so I suggest you read this. Do not let the firearm control you. You control the firearm. Force your will into it. Don't be scare of gun. Firm grip!

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=290


Remember the four safety rules. These rules can't be broken.
Rule #1 - All guns are always loaded.

Rule #2 - Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready to destroy.

Rule #3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Rule #4 - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Here is my list of top pistols and rifle. Not in any order.

Pistols:
1911
Glock 17 or 19
92FS
Browning HP
CZ 75

Rifles:
AR15
FAL
Rem 700
Ruger 10/22
AK

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

[Pointy Sextant]

I can assure you that .22lr isn't harmless. The Israeli use them successfully against terrorists. Lots of SF commandos has .22lr rifles and pistols in their armory.

My favorite caliber is .22lr. I shoot between 50,000 to 100,000 a year when I was very active in shooting and young. Now a days around 25,000 to 30,000.

Yes most gun range has pistols (and some might have rifles) for loan. However you have to buy their overpriced ammo to use them.

Firearms are good investments. For personal safety as well as financial. Firearms do not lose much of their value if any over time even if used. So you should buy at least one pistol, rifle, and shotgun.

For first time shooter I suggest you load one round into the magazine so you know how the recoil feels. After that load as much as you like. Everybody gets nervous the first time but after that, like everything else a non-event.

You probably going to shoot a pistol first so I suggest you read this. Do not let the firearm control you. You control the firearm. Force your will into it. Don't be scare of gun. Firm grip!

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=290


Remember the four safety rules. These rules can't be broken.
Rule #1 - All guns are always loaded.

Rule #2 - Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not ready to destroy.

Rule #3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Rule #4 - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Here is my list of top pistols and rifle. Not in any order.

Pistols:
1911
Glock 17 or 19
92FS
Browning HP
CZ 75

Rifles:
AR15
FAL
Rem 700
Ruger 10/22
AK

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

Strictly speaking, training with firearms should go pistol rifle shotgun not rifle shotgun pistol?

And when training with a shotgun, what style of shell should I use? buck shot, bird shot, or slug?

What are good programs to get a sense for ballistics in an academic sense? Design of bullets, payloads, and weapons? Included in a down to earth understanding of the process I would also like to develop a bit of a clinical understanding of the process involved.

Also, purely as an artist, I regret not seeing the vector on that list. It has such clean lines.

[Pointy Sextant]

For clarfication, I have been wondeing about something. There are certain guns that are called machine pistols rather than submachineguns that baffle me. The reason for this is not just the fact that they are cosmetically
very much rifle like, but that they are chambered in what is usually a rifle round, so how they can be a pistol does not make sense to me. I was wondering if you gentlemen could clear this up for me.

For example:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLR-16

[k9870]

The lack of stock may be it.

Machine gun: Rifle Calibers

Sub-Machine gun: Pistol calibers


Both examples have no stock, and are short. There pistols.

[Gunmaster45]

They should differentiate more. A pistol caliber handgun that fires fully automatic is called a "machine pistol", but it should be "submachine pistol". And the rifle calibered pistols should be called "pistols", because they aren't full auto guns, so machine pistol doesn't apply to these guns. If it was a full auto pistol that fires rifle rounds, THEN it could be considered a machine pistol.

[jdun]

Strictly speaking, training with firearms should go pistol rifle shotgun not rifle shotgun pistol?

And when training with a shotgun, what style of shell should I use? buck shot, bird shot, or slug?

What are good programs to get a sense for ballistics in an academic sense? Design of bullets, payloads, and weapons? Included in a down to earth understanding of the process I would also like to develop a bit of a clinical understanding of the process involved.

Also, purely as an artist, I regret not seeing the vector on that list. It has such clean lines.

It depends on how old you are. When I was a kid I was train first in rifle, shotgun, and pistol. The military train rifle first then pistol. However pistol training time in the military is very low.

If you're an adult and getting your first firearm it probably should be a pistol, then shotgun, and rifle because pistol are the prefer choice for self defense.

Depends on how much money you have for ammo. Money and time is always the limiting factor in training. Bird shot are inexpensive so you get more for the buck. However for home defense I'll go with 00 buck. Do not use bird shot for personnel defense. They are not design for it.

I belong to a private gun club. Our private club has an outdoor and indoor range. The outdoor range open to our members till 7pm/7 because we do not what to disturb our neighbors. The indoor range open 24/7. Basically every member has a key to the range. There is no range officer.

So if I am the only person or if the members there agree, there is no fireline and no firelane. We can do whatever training we like as long as we fellow the safety rules.

People get high on ballistic. I use to when I was a kid but not anymore. I don't lose any sleep over stopping power between 9mm vs 45ACP or .22 cal vs. 30 cal. because here the absolute truth. There is none. You keep shooting until your opponent is dead. Period.

If you're still hang up on ballistic, check this site.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/
http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html

Rent a Glock 17 or 19 and buy 100 or two 9mm 115 or 124 grn bullet. Shoot and have fun.

The Magpul dvd is inexpensive compare to other video of its kind. It mainly deals with carbine but touch on some basic pistol shooting, ie transition from rifle/carbine to pistol in combat.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Magpul_Dynamics_The_Art_of_the_Tactical_Carbine_3-disc_Training_DVD.html

If you decided that you like shooting go join a pivate Gun Club or complete completing in completion. Like this young lady here. She's using a Glock 17.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=577&Itemid=39

[Pointy Sextant]

Another point of confusion.

Flechette rounds fly longer and straighter than conventional rounds. Yet sniper rifles use conventional style rounds. Why is that? It seems to me that Sabot Flechette rounds would extend the range of snipers and thus increase their effectiveness. Is there a specific reason other than availability of ammunition that the changeover to Flechette rounds hasn't been made?

[Gunmaster45]

I'm pretty sure they are banned by the Genneva convention... but for some reason I could buy a box of 100 out of cheaper than dirt if I wanted without any restrictions. The flachette round seemed interesting but I can't see how they wouldn't mess up function since they aren't round at the head.

[Gunmaster45]

Also, purely as an artist, I regret not seeing the vector on that list. It has such clean lines.

You mean the Vector CP1? I think they are kind of ugly personally. I don't know how reliable they are, but it is an interesting enough choice. They looked good in xXx.

[Vangelis]

Another point of confusion.

Flechette rounds fly longer and straighter than conventional rounds. Yet sniper rifles use conventional style rounds. Why is that? It seems to me that Sabot Flechette rounds would extend the range of snipers and thus increase their effectiveness. Is there a specific reason other than availability of ammunition that the changeover to Flechette rounds hasn't been made?

Flechettes might fly straight, but their wound channels are tiny, they deflect easily [SALVO / SPIW found their 5.6x53mm and 5.6x44mm flechettes could be deflected by raindrops], they're very, very expensive to produce, tend to be loud and have excessive muzzle flash, and since their range largely comes from being light and aerodynamic, their performance against armour is spotty, too; there's something to be said for rounds having high momentum rather than just high kinetic energy.

Gunmaster45: It's been argued that the Geneva Convention forbids deploying artillery flechette rounds in civilian populated areas; people argue they violate the provisions protecting non-combatants, on the basis that an arty flechette is a fragmentation round with 8,000 8-grain nails as well as bits of the casing to kill people with, and so it might kill people. As opposed to any other artillery shell you might fire at a civilian populated area which wouldn't kill anyone, I guess.

[AdAstra2009]

I'm pretty sure they are banned by the Genneva convention... but for some reason I could buy a box of 100 out of cheaper than dirt if I wanted without any restrictions. The flachette round seemed interesting but I can't see how they wouldn't mess up function since they aren't round at the head.

Didn't stop the US Military from using them in Vietnam.

[Pointy Sextant]

Flechettes might fly straight, but their wound channels are tiny, they deflect easily [SALVO / SPIW found their 5.6x53mm and 5.6x44mm flechettes could be deflected by raindrops], they're very, very expensive to produce, tend to be loud and have excessive muzzle flash, and since their range largely comes from being light and aerodynamic, their performance against armour is spotty, too; there's something to be said for rounds having high momentum rather than just high kinetic energy.

Gunmaster45: It's been argued that the Geneva Convention forbids deploying artillery flechette rounds in civilian populated areas; people argue they violate the provisions protecting non-combatants, on the basis that an arty flechette is a fragmentation round with 8,000 8-grain nails as well as bits of the casing to kill people with, and so it might kill people. As opposed to any other artillery shell you might fire at a civilian populated area which wouldn't kill anyone, I guess.

I'm confused on a kinetic energy level how a raindrop deflects a round. That sounds fantastic to me. I thought that a flecette assault rifle was in therunning to replace the M16 at one point?