M16A4 in the Army

[Spartan198]

Does anyone here know at what level usage of the M16A4 is within the US Army?

Most of what I find on this subject only says it's "in use by some units of the US Army" without any details (which I've been hearing for a couple of years now). Are there any released details about it?

[MT2008]

Does anyone here know at what level usage of the M16A4 is within the US Army?

Most of what I find on this subject only says it's "in use by some units of the US Army" without any details (which I've been hearing for a couple of years now). Are there any released details about it?

I don't think it's ever been officially adopted. Only the Marines issue the M16A4 in large numbers. Technically, the M16A2 is still standard-issue in the Army, though just about all of our soldiers who are actually in combat (in Afghanistan and Iraq) are using M4s. Dunno if there are any released details about it, but that's the impression you get just from looking at pics from both theaters of operations.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

I don't think it's ever been officially adopted. Only the Marines issue the M16A4 in large numbers. Technically, the M16A2 is still standard-issue in the Army, though just about all of our soldiers who are actually in combat (in Afghanistan and Iraq) are using M4s. Dunno if there are any released details about it, but that's the impression you get just from looking at pics from both theaters of operations.

I've seem quite a few photographs in the war zones that have A4s. In fact I rarely see pictures of plain A2s, but that's also influenced by what the photographers (and photo editors) deem 'sexy'.

[MT2008]

I've seem quite a few photographs in the war zones that have A4s. In fact I rarely see pictures of plain A2s, but that's also influenced by what the photographers (and photo editors) deem 'sexy'.

You've seen Army guys, wearing ACUs, using A4s? I'm sure there are some (assuming Wikipedia is accurate), but probably 95% of the Army personnel I've seen in Iraq pictures seem to have only M4s. I used to see them with M16A2s back in the early days of the war ('03-'04), but now it seems to be almost exclusively M4s and an occasional M16A2.

I do, of course, see Marines (wearing MARPAT desert camo) all the time carrying the M16A4.

[Nyles]

It's mostly rear echelon troops carrying M16A2s, the carbines go to the front line troops that need them.

[Excalibur]

Speaking of the A4s, I saw vids of US troops handing out A4s for the Iraqi army, switching the AKs that were in current use.

[MT2008]

Speaking of the A4s, I saw vids of US troops handing out A4s for the Iraqi army, switching the AKs that were in current use.

I'm pretty sure that's only for select units right now. Most of the Iraqi Army are still issued AKs - however, the best units (that is, the ones which have actually proven competent to carry out operations without being baby-sat by our troops) are getting issued M16A4s and M4s.

[Phoenixent]

Iraq has ordered a large quantity of M-16A4 for their Army. This is from a government publication.(2006: 50,750 M16A2 rifles, 50,750 M4A1 carbines; 2007: 123,544 M16A4 Rifles and 12,035 M4 Carbines) They have also just received 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks for their army. Their air force is look at F16 fighters also.

2008 request from Iraq
* 100,000 M16A4 Assault Rifles
* 140,000 M16A4 Magazines
* 100,000 M4 Weapons
* 4,000 AN/PVS-7D Night Vision Devices
* 1,100 40mm Grenade Launchers
* 3,300 9mm Pistols with Holsters
* 400 Aiming Posts


We are training them and their mindset is that we want the the Americans have and that's what they are buying at this time.

[MT2008]

Iraq has ordered a large quantity of M-16A4 for their Army. This is from a government publication.(2006: 50,750 M16A2 rifles, 50,750 M4A1 carbines; 2007: 123,544 M16A4 Rifles and 12,035 M4 Carbines) They have also just received 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks for their army. Their air force is look at F16 fighters also.

2008 request from Iraq
* 100,000 M16A4 Assault Rifles
* 140,000 M16A4 Magazines
* 100,000 M4 Weapons
* 4,000 AN/PVS-7D Night Vision Devices
* 1,100 40mm Grenade Launchers
* 3,300 9mm Pistols with Holsters
* 400 Aiming Posts


We are training them and their mindset is that we want the the Americans have and that's what they are buying at this time.

Hmmm, interesting, thanks for this info. I remembered reading about the purchase of the M1s and the increasing numbers of M16s and M4s, but I didn't realize that the Iraqis actually wanted to ditch their AKs for M16s. While they're at it, they also ought to ditch those surplus "chocolate chip" uniforms we donated to them, too.

Now, as long as they use the weapons to actually fight those jihadist bastards, and don't go Saudi on us, I'll be OK with the idea...

[Phoenixent]

I think the main worry in the region is Iran. With Iraq, and Kuwait having similar equipment and training it will go along way to help them with that problem. The other item that will help them is they will be able to use Iranian ammo if it ever comes to that. The Iranians main rifle in the Chinese CQ which is a copy of the early M16A1's with new style furniture. The Chinese setup a factory to build that weapon in Iran. The CQ was originally built to supply the Philippine insurgents along with they M14 clone but I guess that did not pay as well when they found out the Philippines were Islamic and not Communist.

[MT2008]

I think the main worry in the region is Iran. With Iraq, and Kuwait having similar equipment and training it will go along way to help them with that problem. The other item that will help them is they will be able to use Iranian ammo if it ever comes to that. The Iranians main rifle in the Chinese CQ which is a copy of the early M16A1's with new style furniture. The Chinese setup a factory to build that weapon in Iran. The CQ was originally built to supply the Philippine insurgents along with they M14 clone but I guess that did not pay as well when they found out the Philippines were Islamic and not Communist.

The thing I worry about is the fact that the Dawa Party (al-Maliki's party) used to be Iranian proxies during the Iran-Iraq War. Not sure I feel comfortable handing billions in American-made weaponry to people like that. But, I guess it was the best we could do.

Does Iran really use the CQ as standard-issue nowadays? I usually see them pictured with AK variants, and I know they manufacture the Type 56 under license. They used to use G3s (also made under license, dating back to the days of the Shah), but I think those have been mostly phased out nowadays.

[Spartan198]

Does Iran really use the CQ as standard-issue nowadays? I usually see them pictured with AK variants, and I know they manufacture the Type 56 under license. They used to use G3s (also made under license, dating back to the days of the Shah), but I think those have been mostly phased out nowadays.
Ironic how, despite the fact that they hate America, they're using an American-made rifle, seeing as the CQ is nothing more than a refurnished M16A1...

[Excalibur]

Well that's saying America hates communists but we love their AK47s.

[Spartan198]

Well that's saying America hates communists but we love their AK47s.
Good point.

[MT2008]

Ironic how, despite the fact that they hate America, they're using an American-made rifle, seeing as the CQ is nothing more than a refurnished M16A1...

Most people who have a choice would rather take an M16 over an AK. The AK may have a reputation for being more reliable and less mechanically complex than the M16, but the M16 and derivatives are more accurate, more ergonomic, and far better suited to the needs of a conventional army today.

As Pheonixent has explained, however, the CQ was originally manufactured after the Sino-Soviet split to aid guerrilla armies that were hostile to the Soviets, but receiving aid from both the U.S. and China. The Chinese probably figured that those groups would be receiving lots of 5.56x45mm ammo from the U.S. But the reality was that the U.S. only ever sent AKs and 7.62x39mm ammunition made by countries no longer aligned with the USSR, like Egypt and China. Or Soviet-made stuff captured by the Israelis and South Africans.

I believe Norinco makes an M4 copy, too, nowadays.

[Yournamehere]

Ironic how, despite the fact that they hate America, they're using an American-made rifle, seeing as the CQ is nothing more than a refurnished M16A1...

Hey man, I've seen a Neo-Nazi weilding an Uzi. You can't be racist towards a hunk of metal that you use for violence, and since when has blind hatred ever made any sense?

[MT2008]

Hey man, I've seen a Neo-Nazi weilding an Uzi. You can't be racist towards a hunk of metal that you use for violence, and since when has blind hatred ever made any sense?

I think I remember hearing once that arms dealers in the Palestinian territories always have a harder time selling Uzis and Galils to Palestinian militias than they do selling AKs and M16s. Come to think of it, I've never seen a Hamas gunman carrying an Israeli-made weapon, but I have seen the secular leftist Palestinian factions (Fatah, PFLP, etc.) carrying them.

[Excalibur]

It was a qoute from Lord of War. "I've sold Isreali made Uzis to Muslims. I've sold communist bullets to facists. I;ve even made money selling arms in Afganistan against my fellow soviets. I've never sold to Osama bin laden. Not on any moral grounds, back then he was bouncing checks."

[Yournamehere]

It was a qoute from Lord of War. "I've sold Isreali made Uzis to Muslims. I've sold communist bullets to facists. I;ve even made money selling arms in Afganistan against my fellow soviets. I've never sold to Osama bin laden. Not on any moral grounds, back then he was bouncing checks."

Eh, no. I saw a photo of a Neo-Nazi, not a muslim, with an Uzi.
http://funwithcontrollers.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/nazi.jpg
There we go.

[Excalibur]

And i was just qouting the movie because someone brought it up

[MT2008]

Eh, no. I saw a photo of a Neo-Nazi, not a muslim, with an Uzi.
http://funwithcontrollers.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/nazi.jpg
There we go.

That's pretty funny...although if you want to get nitpicky, she's holding the Uzi CARBINE, which is the semi-auto civvie version, not an actual Uzi subgun.

[jdun]

The thing I worry about is the fact that the Dawa Party (al-Maliki's party) used to be Iranian proxies during the Iran-Iraq War. Not sure I feel comfortable handing billions in American-made weaponry to people like that. But, I guess it was the best we could do.

Does Iran really use the CQ as standard-issue nowadays? I usually see them pictured with AK variants, and I know they manufacture the Type 56 under license. They used to use G3s (also made under license, dating back to the days of the Shah), but I think those have been mostly phased out nowadays.

Iranian PSD use UZI that are made in Iran. Elements of Iranian SF use AR15 that are made in Iran.

Hezbollah and Hamas has their own small arms weapon factory. The factory produce AR and AK.

[MT2008]

Iranian PSD use UZI that are made in Iran. Elements of Iranian SF use AR15 that are made in Iran.

Hezbollah and Hamas has their own small arms weapon factory. The factory produce AR and AK.

The Iranian Uzis and AR-15s are actually just licensed copies from Norinco, aren't they? The Chinese have manufactured both the CQ (AR-15) and Uzi clones for a while now, and just about everything the Iranians make is licensed from them.

Hezbollah and Hamas make ARs and AKs? I find that hard to believe because I've seen lots of videos of their Qassam rockets, which are no matter advanced than anything I could build in my back yard. Their Yasin RPGs, likewise, are extremely crude copies of the RPG-2. I always figured that Iran and Syria provided them with their AKs, while the M16s were stolen from the Israelis and South Lebanese Army (for Hamas and Hezbollah, respectively)? Not to mention that the U.S. left behind a huge number of M16A1s when we pulled out of Lebanon in the early-80s.

[jdun]

Firearms are simple machine. You got 10 years old kids in Africa building AKs. Hell I saw a video on youtube video a while back where a guy made an AK in a cave.

Firearms were invented in a time where there was no electricity, no cars, no computers, no phones, no airplanes, no pumping, no public school, etc. If they were able to do it with little education, I'm sure most of you are capable of it.

It isn't hard to mass produce firearms.

I don't see why the Iranian needs to buy licensed copies from the Chinese. It's not like they own the patents. Those expire long ago and the Chinese didn't invent or patent them. All they need from the Chinese are milling machines which doesn't cost much or they could make it themselves.

Hezbollah and Hamas makes AK, AR, and whatever firearms they like in their home, garage, or any place that can give them privacy. The Iranian also supplies them with ARs.

Hezbollah and Hamas mainly use ARs.

This is an Iranian made AR that is use by Hezbollah:
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30233&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829

This is an Hezbollah made AR. Notice it is flat top. It is not A1 or A2 and look brand new.
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30231&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30265&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30267&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829

[jdun]

(was limited to four pictures per post)

Here are the Israeli PSD personnel. Notice they have color strip on their AR? They are there to determined friends or foe because Hezbollah and Hamas gunmen mostly use AR.
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30269&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829
http://www.rpginn.com/xgalleryx/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30271&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=01f096dbdde46f86806fb41d9da87829

Here is a video where a bunch of terrorists are using AR. Notice the AR. Those were not made in the 70's.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=526&Itemid=39

We gave a lot of AR to the Lebanon government. We did not leave it around like it was suggested in the movie Lord of War. The Lord of War to me was 100% pure Hollywood BS.

[MT2008]

Point taken on "Lord of War". I have heard (not from a movie) that the U.S. left behind many M16s in Vietnam, so I figured it would make sense if the same happened in Lebanon. But that's what I get for trusting Hollywood. :(

Hezbollah actually runs gun factories? I do realize that many of the militants manufacture weapons, but I always figured the stuff they made was pretty simple. The rockets and RPGs I see are crude stuff, so I never would have imagined they could build something like an M4 (like that one Hezbollah gunman is holding) and build all the plastic parts and all that.

AKs would be simple to make, though - I have seen images of tribesmen in Pakistan (mostly NWFP and FATA) who can make exact copies of the AKM and Type 56. They're pretty good copies, too, although I think they lack chrome-lined barrels.

[jdun]

I do apologize if I came in too strong with my comments. It was not my intention.

I believe there was only 1,800 or so Marines that was stationed in Lebanon between 1982-1984. There wasn't much to be left behind by the Marines. The arms assistant program did provide lots of weapons to the Lebanese government. You still see government troops using A1 or A2 rifles and US armored vehicles.

Hezbollah makes their weapons in their own home, business shops, schools, etc. Not a full blown weapon factory per said.

AK receiver are made out of 1mm sheet metal. You can buy AK flats for around $13.00-$50.00 each depending on where it came from without the needs for FFL transfer.

http://www.copesdistributing.net/index.php?cPath=32_34&sort=2a&page=1

For AR, the lower can be built on any material that is strong enough to hold the the upper and trigger pack. I've seen pictures where the lower receiver was built with wood. They can get away with it because the lower receiver is stress free.

Here one that was built from a cutting board.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3chSzLxPuzU

Anyway great site that back their information with proofs (picture still from movie). Keep up the good work!

[MT2008]

"Too strong"? What?

I have heard the South Lebanese Army receives surplus American and Israeli M16 rifles (mostly A1s and A2s), and I figured this was the primary source of such weapons for Hezbollah gunmen.

As far as AKs go, I agree those are quite easy to manufacture compared to AR-15s/M16s. I've even encouraged my Dad to try and built a receiver himself (he wouldn't bother with the flat) and complete the rest with an AK parts kit. Though I'm sure he could build the entire thing from scratch if need-be.

Glad you like our site!

[jdun]

The whole international small arms smuggler is overblown. In the past I have seen Youtube videos where third world kids are making AKs and selling them for $50 in weapons market. Who wants to buy an $800 AK from an international small arms smuggler when you can go get one for $50 in the open arms market. Support the local economy you know.

Most third world killings are done with blade and blunt weapons. If you look at all the genocide in Africa, you will find by far the weapon of choice are blade and blunt weapons.

The latest news is that Mexico are getting AR for the USA. These Mexican's drug gangs are using full auto AR. So I doubt it was made from the USA.

In the US full auto AR cost well over 25k each if you can get someone to sell it to you. Those full auto AR are made in Mexico by Mexicans. If you're a drug lord, which would be cheaper? Buy a 10k CNC milling machine and produce all the full auto AR that you like. Or try find someone in the USA willing to sell you a full auto AR for at least 25k and then smuggle it back to Mexico?

[MT2008]

The latest news is that Mexico are getting AR for the USA. These Mexican's drug gangs are using full auto AR. So I doubt it was made from the USA.

In the US full auto AR cost well over 25k each if you can get someone to sell it to you. Those full auto AR are made in Mexico by Mexicans. If you're a drug lord, which would be cheaper? Buy a 10k CNC milling machine and produce all the full auto AR that you like. Or try find someone in the USA willing to sell you a full auto AR for at least 25k and then smuggle it back to Mexico?

You could always buy a semi AR and convert it. Also, I've seen pictures of confiscated arms in Mexico. I see plenty of ARs with 16" barrels, which is the U.S. civvie-required length.

Most of the sources I've seen claim that a majority of the guns in Mexico (used by both cartels and civilians looking for protection) are coming from the States, although it's hard to get an exact percentage.

[Phoenixent]

You could always buy a semi AR and convert it. Also, I've seen pictures of confiscated arms in Mexico. I see plenty of ARs with 16" barrels, which is the U.S. civvie-required length.

Most of the sources I've seen claim that a majority of the guns in Mexico (used by both cartels and civilians looking for protection) are coming from the States, although it's hard to get an exact percentage.

There is also a lot of weapons coming out of the Mexican Military and Police. I would like to see the photos on the AR carbines to see if they are LE models sent down to the Mexican Police. I know of a Colt 9mm SMG that was sent to El Salvador that was confiscated in a drug house in LA. I had it in my hand looking it over and it was mint. The drug cartel got it when they arrived.

[jdun]

There is actually no proof that most of the guns that are in Mexico came from the USA illegally.

I would like to see the serial numbers and roll marks on all the guns that was taken by the drug runners. I bet you only a minority of it came from the USA. The rest are made in Mexico by Mexicans.

[MT2008]

There is also a lot of weapons coming out of the Mexican Military and Police. I would like to see the photos on the AR carbines to see if they are LE models sent down to the Mexican Police. I know of a Colt 9mm SMG that was sent to El Salvador that was confiscated in a drug house in LA. I had it in my hand looking it over and it was mint. The drug cartel got it when they arrived.

Here's one pic:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08mz3GZcAV9bk/610x.jpg
http://www.daylife.com/photo/08mz3GZcAV9bk

Some of these look like they're probably mil-spec/LEO, but quite a few seem to be civvie types. It is true that the cartels are definitely not getting their stuff only from U.S. gun stores, but there are definitely lots of weapons that they are acquiring over here. The Five-Sevens and PS90 carbines (the "matapolicias", as they call them) are almost surely being bought over here.

Also, I live in Texas, and some of the local FFLs here have actually talked about suspicious people buying guns in their stores, who they suspect might be willing to sell them across the border. It used to be something of a taboo to discuss, I understand, but there's been a lot more chatter about the issue lately.

[MT2008]

There is actually no proof that most of the guns that are in Mexico came from the USA illegally.

I would like to see the serial numbers and roll marks on all the guns that was taken by the drug runners. I bet you only a minority of it came from the USA. The rest are made in Mexico by Mexicans.

The estimates are all over the place. I don't trust the ones given by the Mexican government, but most sources I looked at agree a majority are guns that were bought in U.S. gun stores.

Also, I doubt most of them are manufactured by the Mexicans. I've seen quite a few pictures of arms caches confiscated by the authorities, and I've seen stuff like gold-plated 1911s and Desert Eagles, FN PS90 carbines and Five-Seven pistols, old "post-ban" AKs with the thumbhole stocks, and some type of AR pistol. I can't imagine that the Mexicans are making those. It may be possible, but the weapons simply look way too much like the ones I've seen for sale on the 'Net, and at my local FFLs. I'm not sure Mexicans have the same sort of experience building guns as the Pushtun in Central Asia.

I have seen lots of stuff that they aren't getting from the U.S., however - GPMGs, RPG-7s, PKMs, LAW rockets, various types of grenades. Also plenty of short-barreled AR-15 variants (which wouldn't be legal in the U.S.) and H&Ks.

[MT2008]

Also, here's a Five-Seven confiscated from a cartel arms stash:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04wsdYkg0ja5F/610x.jpg

In this one, you can actually see the serial number - it wasn't even filed off. You can also see that the gun is marked "FNH-USA". The caption beside the photo on the web site says that the guns were captured while being smuggled across the border.

[Gunmaster45]

Did it mention anything about where that AKMSU in the background is from?

[MT2008]

Did it mention anything about where that AKMSU in the background is from?

It said both were part of a cache that was intercepted in transition across the border. Also, I don't think that's a factory AKMSU; it looks like one of those Century Arms AK pistols (it has no folding stock, if you look closely).

[Phoenixent]

Here's one pic:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08mz3GZcAV9bk/610x.jpg
http://www.daylife.com/photo/08mz3GZcAV9bk

Some of these look like they're probably mil-spec/LEO, but quite a few seem to be civvie types. It is true that the cartels are definitely not getting their stuff only from U.S. gun stores, but there are definitely lots of weapons that they are acquiring over here. The Five-Sevens and PS90 carbines (the "matapolicias", as they call them) are almost surely being bought over here.

Also, I live in Texas, and some of the local FFLs here have actually talked about suspicious people buying guns in their stores, who they suspect might be willing to sell them across the border. It used to be something of a taboo to discuss, I understand, but there's been a lot more chatter about the issue lately.

There is a lot of Colt LEO carbines 16" barrel notched for the M203 with late style buttstocks. I don't know it the Mexican Government actually captured those or put on a dog and pony show like Ruby Ridge. You take a few weapons that are captured and add your own hoping no one would notice. What I find interesting on the photos is the amount of LEO there are in the small sample. Colt has a six month back log on LEO due to so many PD's buying them for the patrol cars. The other thing that funny with this is the Mexican Government refused to give the serial numbers to ATF so there is no way to cross check where this stuff is coming from.

You know that can't be in Mexico as Guns are outlawed in Mexico.:D

[Spartan198]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04wsdYkg0ja5F/610x.jpg
Wow, those Five-Sevens are a lot bigger than they look in pictures.

[Excalibur]

Oh don't worry. They are a LOT lighter than you think. Took me by surprise when I held one, considering the size of it.

[jdun]

There is actually one case against one gun dealer in the USA that suppose to supplies to guns to the Mexican. That case has been drop because the Judge said the ATF faked the records.

You would expect more indictments on gun dealers across the USA because the serial numbers will lead them to the gun dealers. But again that isn't the case.

16" is standard AR for a lot of LEA. The US military used 16" in the past before Colt went with 14.5". 16" barrel is standard across the board so the point is moot.

The lowers is what the ATF considered a firearms on an AR. It is where the serial number is located. The upper are not considered a firearm. You can go to any internet gun shop and have it deliver to your home. You can get a 14.5" barrel or shorter deliver to your home. There is no law preventing you owning a 14.5 upper or less in the USA. However it is illegal to mate it with a lower that isn't NFA. Again the 14.5" vs 16" is a moot point.

Guns are exported to Mexico legally.

The guns that are used by Mexicans gangs are full auto. If they are able to convert to full auto they are capable of making it themselves.

[MT2008]

There is a lot of Colt LEO carbines 16" barrel notched for the M203 with late style buttstocks. I don't know it the Mexican Government actually captured those or put on a dog and pony show like Ruby Ridge. You take a few weapons that are captured and add your own hoping no one would notice. What I find interesting on the photos is the amount of LEO there are in the small sample. Colt has a six month back log on LEO due to so many PD's buying them for the patrol cars. The other thing that funny with this is the Mexican Government refused to give the serial numbers to ATF so there is no way to cross check where this stuff is coming from.

You know that can't be in Mexico as Guns are outlawed in Mexico.:D

First of all, I forgot that Colt's LEO carbines still have 16" barrels.

However, are you sure those are all Colts? Some of them might be Bushmasters or Olympic Arms ARs.

[MT2008]

There is actually one case against one gun dealer in the USA that suppose to supplies to guns to the Mexican. That case has been drop because the Judge said the ATF faked the records.

You would expect more indictments on gun dealers across the USA because the serial numbers will lead them to the gun dealers. But again that isn't the case.

I'm not sure gun dealers selling weapons illegally is really the problem. As I understand it, the main issue is that Mexicans - both cartel gunmen and civilians - are acquiring the guns through straw purchases. A lot of them have relatives who live in the U.S. legally and buy them the guns.

Again, I must emphasize that in Texas, there are FFLs who seem to be aware of this happening and want to do something to stop it. There are accounts of dealers who get some thuggish-looking Latino who comes in asking about a gun but doesn't buy, and then a few hours later, a Latina comes in and buys the same gun he was looking at.


16" is standard AR for a lot of LEA. The US military used 16" in the past before Colt went with 14.5". 16" barrel is standard across the board so the point is moot.

The lowers is what the ATF considered a firearms on an AR. It is where the serial number is located. The upper are not considered a firearm. You can go to any internet gun shop and have it deliver to your home. You can get a 14.5" barrel or shorter deliver to your home. There is no law preventing you owning a 14.5 upper or less in the USA. However it is illegal to mate it with a lower that isn't NFA. Again the 14.5" vs 16" is a moot point.

Guns are exported to Mexico legally.

The guns that are used by Mexicans gangs are full auto. If they are able to convert to full auto they are capable of making it themselves.

First of all, I haven't seen any data indicating the percentage of weapons used by the cartels that are full-auto. I wouldn't trust the media, either. We all know how much they confuse semi- with full-auto "assault weapons" on a regular basis. The news reports which give the impression that the cartels are using exclusively full-auto weapons aren't to be trusted.

Anyway, why would anyone use 16" barrels unless that's what happened to be available to them? Most of the ARs seen in Mexican govt. hands seem to be short-barreled versions, and those are seen occasionally in cartel gun caches, but not always.

I'm sorry, but what you're saying just doesn't make sense. It makes way more sense to me that cartel gunmen would ask relatives or hire straw buyers here in Texas. It's fairly easy to do and to get away with, and the semi-auto ARs with 16" barrels do almost everything their full-auto, shorter-barreled counterparts do. Why manufacture a new, full-auto AR from scratch (which would take expertise that I doubt these illiterate thugs have), when you can have someone across the border purchase something that's fairly easy to buy at a Texas FFL?

Note that I am not endorsing gun bans or anything of the sort. My stance is that if Congress would just admit the War on Drugs has failed and end it right now, we wouldn't even need to worry about all this cartel war bullshit.

[Phoenixent]

First of all, I forgot that Colt's LEO carbines still have 16" barrels.

However, are you sure those are all Colts? Some of them might be Bushmasters or Olympic Arms ARs.

You are correct it could be other makes on the LEO carbines my bad. I still have a hard time with the number confiscated when they can't control the drug cartel at the border. Also have you heard about the Mexican troop defending runners on our side of the border armed with their G36 clones?

[MT2008]

You are correct it could be other makes on the LEO carbines my bad. I still have a hard time with the number confiscated when they can't control the drug cartel at the border. Also have you heard about the Mexican troop defending runners on our side of the border armed with their G36 clones?

I haven't, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was true. If you think the Mexican government's stats on guns confiscated are bullshit, you should see their stats on official corruption. :D

[Phoenixent]

I haven't, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was true. If you think the Mexican government's stats on guns confiscated are bullshit, you should see their stats on official corruption. :D

Amen Brother :D:D:D

[Rockwolf66]

Wow, those Five-Sevens are a lot bigger than they look in pictures.
I wear a size large Glove and While I can comfortably hold an MK 23 SOCCOM pistol with all the trimmings. the FiveseveN is in the same baot as the Desert Ego...just too big for my hand.

[jdun]

We got a close border but not close enough IMO. It is harder to smuggle guns to Mexico from the USA then from other Latin countries. Mexico southern border is wide open, anything to everything comes from the South.

It doesn't matter if it is a straw purchases or not the serial number will trace all the way back to the original manufacture. The ATF will know who was the buyer and who was the seller. If most of the arms came from straw buyers in the USA then the ATF would know, yes? Yet there is only one person that was taken to court and the judge threw the case out.

It does not take much time to manufacture a weapon. You do not need a education. Ten years old kids in third world countries are manufacturing firearms in their hunt with basic tools. If these kids can do it I bet those thugs can.

It is cheaper and safer for drug dealers to manufacture firearms then to smuggle it into the country from the USA. All they need is a $1,000 milling machine. Put a computer on it, hire a kid to feed the machine, and you'll be pumping out firearms 24/7.

Firearms are very very simple machine. The problem is most Americans are too dumb or lazy to understand this.

16" barrel is the standard. Everyone use them including the military and LEO. You can't said the 16" barrel is made for civilians only because that's not true. The US Marine use 20" barrels so if you see a 20" barrel AR15 use by drug thugs can you said it came from the US Marines? All I'm saying it is a moot point to even mention barrel length.

[k9870]

Barrel lenghth is important as m855 is supposed to penetrate then break apart for it's wounding power, and for the necessary velocity a mininum barrel length of 16 inches is need. That's why m4s suck. They seriously could add 1.5inches of barrel onto the m4 and room clear just as good.

As to the m16 use in the army, my friend was issued an a2 in the army and put on a collapsible stock. Basically the same gun as an a4 at that point.

[MT2008]

We got a close border but not close enough IMO. It is harder to smuggle guns to Mexico from the USA then from other Latin countries. Mexico southern border is wide open, anything to everything comes from the South.

People have complained about the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants into this country for years. How is it more difficult to smuggle guns out than to smuggle people and drugs in?


It doesn't matter if it is a straw purchases or not the serial number will trace all the way back to the original manufacture. The ATF will know who was the buyer and who was the seller. If most of the arms came from straw buyers in the USA then the ATF would know, yes? Yet there is only one person that was taken to court and the judge threw the case out.

Isn't that because the serial numbers are often removed?

Also, you aren't distinguishing between FFLs and individuals who buy from them, and then re-sell the guns.


It does not take much time to manufacture a weapon. You do not need a education. Ten years old kids in third world countries are manufacturing firearms in their hunt with basic tools. If these kids can do it I bet those thugs can.

It is cheaper and safer for drug dealers to manufacture firearms then to smuggle it into the country from the USA. All they need is a $1,000 milling machine. Put a computer on it, hire a kid to feed the machine, and you'll be pumping out firearms 24/7.

And that still makes no sense to me. How is cheaper or safer to make a gun? Why would you buy a $1000 milling machine to manufacture an AK that can be bought for under $500 at an FFL, if you know people who can buy it for you? And the thing is, if the person smuggling the gun gets caught, then it still doesn't come back to them either way. The drug dealers don't smuggle the guns themselves; they get other people to do it for them.


16" barrel is the standard. Everyone use them including the military and LEO. You can't said the 16" barrel is made for civilians only because that's not true. The US Marine use 20" barrels so if you see a 20" barrel AR15 use by drug thugs can you said it came from the US Marines? All I'm saying it is a moot point to even mention barrel length.

I know, but I'm talking about AR-15 carbines. Of course most military M16s (the full-size models) have 20" barrels. But on a carbine, 16" usually means that the gun was made for the civilian market. Most of the full-auto carbine AR-15 variants used by the military and SWAT teams have shorter barrels than that - 14.5" is standard on the M4, while 11.5" is preferred for SWAT.

So, no, barrel length is not a moot point when we're talking about AR carbines. If you see an M4gery-type rifle with a 16" barrel (as most of the guns in that picture have), it's safe to assume that it's a civilian model that started out in an American gun store.

[MT2008]

By the way, it's very well known that terrorist groups have bought guns from the U.S., from FFLs. In the 1970s and early-80s, the Provisional IRA used to buy AR-15s and AR-18s (both of which they called "Armalites") over here - they had supporters in the U.S. who bought the guns for them and sent them by boat. In the 1990s, the IRA also bought Barrett M82s and M90s from the U.S., same method. And most of the guns they bought were civilian semi-auto models, purchased at gun stores. I've read interviews with IRA gun runners where they specifically stated that this was what they did.

My point being, if an Irish terrorist group bought guns in the U.S. from across the Atlantic, why wouldn't Mexican cartels (who live right next door to us) do the same thing?

[jdun]

No carbines doesn't mean it is made for civilians. All it means is a 16" barrel or less. Law Enforcement, military, and civilians all use carbines. It's a moot point. If you don't believe me go to a gun board and ask.

How is manufacturing your own weapons cost less? Well, if an AK cost $500 each, the cost to smuggle the weapon into Mexico, danger of getting arrested, and fees for the buyers. Which is cost effective, produce it in Mexico/Latin America for $50 each or buy it from the USA?

If you go to Youtube you will find many videos where drug gangs use fully automatic weapons against the police. Those weapons didn't came from the USA.

If the serial number is grind off how can they said it came for the USA?

If you bought a gun from a FFL it is log into the book. Then you sell it to a private individual it, it doesn't log into the book. That is correct.

However, what the Mexicans are saying is that ten of thousands of arms are coming to their country from the USA. That means they needs ten of thousands of straw buyers to not be trace back. Do you think out of those straw buyers that none of them would rat on the Mexicans? If one straw buyer bought over 1000 guns and all of them landed in Mexico, would that be easy to find out by the ATF?

Disregard the propaganda in the video. Notice the primitive tools these kids use to make firearms? Making firearms isn't hard. It's very simple. American kids graduate out of high school without any trade skills whatsoever. Hence you got a lot of people thinking that firearms needs a magic wand and a clean room to produce. There are many videos floating around the net. This video is well known, tho.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=365&Itemid=39

Don't me started with Yeman. Yeman has the largest ratio of gun per person in the world. Every villages produce their own weapons.

[Rockwolf66]

MT2008,
While yes the IRA did get a fair number of assault rifles and those two Barrets from american Sympathisers the bulk of their weapons came from Nations that were unfriendly to the US. I am talking about thousands of G-3A3 battle rifles from Lybia and according to the IRA itself surface to air missiles and metric tons of Semtex.

The US is the worlds largest legitimate arms dealer in the world. We literally arm entire countries with our weapons. After we legitamatly deliver them to a forign country we are no longer in control of those weapons.

The second Largest weapons dealer legitimatly and largest illegitamate arms dealer is China. Literally the Chinese have been caught trying to sneak entire semi-trucks filled with Military hardware into Mexico. I'm not talking underfolder AK varients and 100 round drums but Mortars, RPGs and the like.

As far as Yemen goes, It's a horrible little country at times and for about a ten year period people I know were jumping the border to let the locals know that training and harboring terrorists was a no no. The Ironic thing is that among my family the only person to be shot in the last 50 years was a civilian on the Saudi/Yemen border.

[MT2008]

No carbines doesn't mean it is made for civilians. All it means is a 16" barrel or less. Law Enforcement, military, and civilians all use carbines. It's a moot point. If you don't believe me go to a gun board and ask.

The issue is not the fact that they are carbines, it's the fact that they are carbines with 16" barrels. Military and SWAT teams use carbines with 14.5" and 11.5", only civilians are required to buy carbines with 16" barrels because that is law.


How is manufacturing your own weapons cost less? Well, if an AK cost $500 each, the cost to smuggle the weapon into Mexico, danger of getting arrested, and fees for the buyers. Which is cost effective, produce it in Mexico/Latin America for $50 each or buy it from the USA?

But what if you know somebody, a relative or a girlfriend, who will smuggle the weapon for free? Not to mention that the cartel has people on a regular payroll in the states, people who don't charge on a per-gun basis.

And people are getting arrested for smuggling guns at the border. The image of the Five-Seven I posted was a gun captured in such circumstances.


If you go to Youtube you will find many videos where drug gangs use fully automatic weapons against the police. Those weapons didn't came from the USA.

They might have been converted from semi-automatics bought in the U.S. It's much easier to convert a semi-auto to full-auto than to build a gun from scratch. If you argue that drug gangs are capable of manufacturing weapons, then why not converting them?

Also, as I've said before, I hope you don't assume ALL of the weapons used by the gangs are full-auto? The media may just be reporting it incorrectly.


If the serial number is grind off how can they said it came for the USA?

Because more often than not, the guns are models that are made specifically for the U.S. civilian market. I've seen a picture of a PS90 semi-automatic carbine captured in an arms raid. That's a weapon FN developed specifically for the U.S. civilian market.


However, what the Mexicans are saying is that ten of thousands of arms are coming to their country from the USA. That means they needs ten of thousands of straw buyers to not be trace back. Do you think out of those straw buyers that none of them would rat on the Mexicans? If one straw buyer bought over 1000 guns and all of them landed in Mexico, would that be easy to find out by the ATF?

Sure, but that's not how most of them do it. And those that are doing such obvious things, are the ones getting caught.

Also, referring to the IRA example: The IRA's chief gun runner in the U.S. said that in the 1970s, he bought 2,500 guns for the IRA. It was 10 years before he got caught. Gun laws are stricter since then in the U.S., and the ATF more alert, but surely you don't think Mexicans might have other ways?


Disregard the propaganda in the video. Notice the primitive tools these kids use to make firearms? Making firearms isn't hard. It's very simple. American kids graduate out of high school without any trade skills whatsoever. Hence you got a lot of people thinking that firearms needs a magic wand and a clean room to produce. There are many videos floating around the net. This video is well known, tho.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=365&Itemid=39

Don't me started with Yeman. Yeman has the largest ratio of gun per person in the world. Every villages produce their own weapons.

I am not disputing that firearms can and have been manufactured without advanced machinery. I have seen many videos like the one you posted. I have seen pictures of Pakistani gun stores where AK-47s and other weapons are manufactured.

However, I have seen many pictures of the weapons being confiscated from the drug gangs. Too many of them look like guns that are made specifically for the American civilian market, and their build quality is too perfect to have been built by Mexicans. When I see stuff like Glocks, Five-Sevens, PS90s, AKs with thumbhole stocks, ARs with 16" barrels, I think it's a safe bet that these guns were bought in the U.S. If I were a Mexican drug dealer, that is where I would go to get my guns. It is the most accessible and simplest place to start.

[MT2008]

While yes the IRA did get a fair number of assault rifles and those two Barrets from american Sympathisers the bulk of their weapons came from Nations that were unfriendly to the US. I am talking about thousands of G-3A3 battle rifles from Lybia and according to the IRA itself surface to air missiles and metric tons of Semtex.

Actually, the G3s in the IRA's possession were of Norwegian origin. They were stolen from a military base in Oslo, I believe. Some were sold to the IRA, the rest to the ETA (a group friendly to the Provos).

Qaddafi gave them thousands of East German and Romanian-made AKMs (in fact, I think the IRA received more AKs than they had guerrillas to use them), plus RPG-7s, DShKs, SA-7s, flamethrowers, FN MAGs, and a whole bunch of "Wonder Nines" (mostly Taurus PT92s).

But before Qaddafi started sending them weapons, the IRA relied upon Irish-Americans to buy them weapons. Some of the "Armalites" in the IRA's possession were actually M16A1s stolen from the U.S. Army (some M60s, too), but most were AR-15s and AR-18s from American gun stores. I think they may have also received some HK91s and Mini-14s (an IRA gun runner mentioned this in his interview, but the shipment he was referring to got intercepted, so maybe those didn't reach the Provos).

Note also that since the American and Libyan pipelines were closed down, the splinter IRA factions have had little luck buying more weaponry. They bought some stuff on the black market in the former Yugoslavia and Czech Republic, but it's been much harder without a source as steady as Qaddafi or the Irish-American community.


The second Largest weapons dealer legitimatly and largest illegitamate arms dealer is China. Literally the Chinese have been caught trying to sneak entire semi-trucks filled with Military hardware into Mexico. I'm not talking underfolder AK varients and 100 round drums but Mortars, RPGs and the like.

True. And perhaps China will step in to fill the gap, even if Obama decides to ban guns in this country.

But right now, it does seem that many of the guns being confiscated in Mexico are the same types that are available (in some cases, design for) on the American civilian market. Saying this does not mean endorsing gun control; it is simply a reality that it does us no good to deny.

[MT2008]

If anyone's curious, you can read this article written by the research firm where I used to be an intern:


Mexico: Dynamics of the Gun Trade
October 24, 2007 | 1547 GMT
By Fred Burton and Scott Stewart

The number of drug-related killings in Mexico in 2007 already has surpassed 2,000, an increase of 300 over the same period last year, according to statistics reported by Mexican media outlets. Moreover, sources familiar with the issue say police officials in some jurisdictions have been purposely underreporting drug-related homicides, suggesting that the real body count is even higher.

In addition to the Mexican drug cartels that engage in torture and killings (at times involving beheadings), armed criminal gangs are notorious kidnappers — prompting some to call Mexico the “kidnapping capital of the world.” This has resulted in a boom for armored car manufacturers and security companies, given that most wealthy people living in the country own armored vehicles, and many employ executive protection teams to provide security for themselves, their families and their homes. Additionally, heavily armed criminal gangs regularly commit armed robberies, muggings and express kidnappings.

The one constant in these violent crimes is guns. Mexico’s robust gun culture stretches back to revolutions, counterrevolutions and revolutionary bandits such as Pancho Villa. Because of this culture, guns are common in Mexico — despite strict gun-control laws and licensing procedures. This demand for guns has created an illicit market that not only is intimately related to the U.S. market for illegal narcotics but also, in many ways, mirrors the dynamics of that market. Drugs flow north and guns flow south — resulting in handsome profits for those willing to run the risks.

Mexican Laws

Similar to the U.S. Constitution, the 1917 Mexican Constitution guarantees Mexico’s inhabitants the right to have “arms of any kind in their possession for their protection and legitimate defense.” However, the constitution includes many caveats on private citizens’ ownership of guns, prohibiting those “expressly forbidden by law” and those “the nation may reserve for the exclusive use of the army, navy or national guard.” Furthermore, Mexican law calls for long prison terms for violators.

Mexico, then, has some of the world’s strictest gun-control laws — making guns difficult to obtain legally. Average citizens who want to purchase guns for self-defense or recreational purposes must first get approval from the government. Then, because there are no private-sector gun stores in the country, they must buy weapons through the Defense Department’s Arms and Ammunition Marketing Division (UCAM). In accordance with Mexican law, the UCAM carefully limits the calibers of guns it sells. For example, it does not sell handguns larger than a .380 or .38 Special. Also, under Mexican law, popular handguns such as .357 magnum revolvers and 9 mm pistols are exclusively reserved for the armed forces.

Regardless of these efforts, the illicit arms market has been thriving for decades — not only because firearm laws are not evenly enforced but also because criminals have found a way to circumvent efforts to stem the flow of guns. Moreover, not all illegal guns are in the hands of cartel members and street criminals. A healthy percentage of them are purchased by affluent Mexicans who are not satisfied with the selection of calibers available through the UCAM. Sources say it is not at all unusual to find Mexicans who own prohibited .357 magnum revolvers or .45 caliber pistols for self-defense against kidnappers and armed robbers. In addition to ballistic considerations, Latin machismo is also a factor — some Mexican men want to own and carry powerful, large-caliber pistols.

The Mechanics of the Gun Trade

This mixture of the historical Mexican gun culture, machismo, strong desire for guns, lax enforcement of gun laws, official corruption and a raging cartel war has created a high demand for illegal guns. Guns sold on the black market in Mexico can fetch as much as 300 percent of their normal market value — a profit margin similar to that of the cocaine trafficked by the cartels. The laws of economics dictate that where there is a strong demand — and a considerable profit margin — entrepreneurs will devise ways to meet that demand. Of course, the illicit markets are no different from the legitimate economy in this respect, and a number of players have emerged to help supply Mexico’s appetite for illicit weaponry.

Millions of Mexicans reside (legally and otherwise) in the United States, and the two countries conduct a staggering amount of commerce (legal and otherwise) across the border. In this context, then, when one considers that there are more gun stores in a typical small town in Texas than there are in all of Mexico City, it should come as no surprise that a large number of the weapons found on the illicit arms market in Mexico originated in the United States. In fact, Mexican officials say that as much as 90 percent of the illegal weapons they seize are of U.S. origin.

The most obvious players in the gun trade are the cartels themselves, which not only have the financial resources to buy guns in the United States but also are in a position to receive guns in trade for narcotics from their distribution contacts north of the border. The traditional pattern for cartel operations over the past few decades has been to smuggle drugs north over the border and return with money and guns — many times over the same routes and by the same conveyances. In addition to the problem of the notoriously corrupt Mexican customs officials, efforts to stem the flow of guns into Mexico also have been hampered by technological limitations. For example, until recently, Mexican authorities lacked X-ray equipment to inspect vehicles entering the country, and this inspection capacity still remains limited.

[MT2008]

The cartels also obtain weapons from contacts along their supply networks in South and Central America, where substantial quantities of military ordnance have been shipped over decades to supply insurgencies and counterinsurgencies. Explosives from domestic Mexican sources also are widely available and are generally less expensive than guns.

Aside from the cartels, other criminal syndicates are dedicated to the arms trade. These groups can range from small mom-and-pop operations involving a few individuals who obtain weapons from family members residing in the United States or Central America to large organizations with complex networks that buy dozens or hundreds of weapons at a time.

As in other criminal enterprises in Mexico, such as drug smuggling or kidnapping, it is not unusual to find police officers and military personnel involved in the illegal arms trade. On Sept. 12, three high-ranking police commanders from Baja California and Baja California Sur states were arrested by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agents in Phoenix for illegally purchasing weapons at a gun show. (U.S. law prohibits foreigners from buying weapons.) Over the past few years, several Mexican government officials have been arrested on both sides of the border for participating in the arms trade.

Although it is illegal for Mexican nationals to buy guns in the United States and for Americans to haul guns to Mexico, entrepreneurs have found a variety of ways to skirt such laws. Perhaps one of the least recognized ploys is plain old document fraud. Fake documents — which are easily obtained along the border — range in quality (and price) from poorly rendered counterfeits to genuine documents obtained with the assistance of corrupt government officials. Using such documents, a Mexican citizen can pose as a U.S. citizen and pass the required background checks to buy guns — unless, that is, the prospective gun buyer was foolish enough to assume the identity of an American with a criminal record.

Perhaps the most common way to purchase guns is by using a “straw-man” buyer (sometimes in combination with document fraud). That is, paying a person with a clean record who has legal standing to buy the gun. This also is a tried-and-true tactic used by criminals in the United States who are ineligible to purchase guns due to prior convictions. The “straw man” in these cases often is a girlfriend or other associate who is paid to buy a gun for them. Also, with so many family relations spanning the border, it is easy for a Mexican citizen to ask an American relative to purchase a gun or guns on their behalf.

While document fraud and straw-man purchases can be used to bypass the law and fool respectable gun dealers, not all gun dealers are respectable. Some will falsify their sales records in order to sell guns to people they know are not legally permitted to have them — especially if the guns are being sold at a premium price. ATF does conduct audits of gun dealers, but even after a steep decline in the number of federal firearms dealers over the past decade, there still are not enough inspectors to regularly audit the records of the more than 50,000 federal firearms license holders. This lack of oversight and the temptation of easy money cause some dealers to break the law knowingly.

Guns also can be obtained for the Mexican black market through theft. The cartels traditionally have tasked groups of young street thugs in the United States with stealing items (such as pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles) for the cartels to use or resell in Mexico. Now, intelligence reports suggest that these thugs have begun to rob gun stores in towns along the border. One such group is the Gulf cartel-related “Zetitas” (little Zetas), which is active in the Texas cities of Houston, Laredo and San Antonio, as well as other places.

A cartel connection is suspected when the weapons and ammunition stolen are popular with the cartels, such as assault rifles and FN Five-Seven pistols. The FN Five-Seven and the FN P-90 personal defense weapon shoot a 5.7 x 28 mm round that has been shown to penetrate body armor, as well as vehicle doors and windows. Because of this, they recently have become very popular with cartel enforcers, who have begun to call the weapons matapolicias — police killers. Several police officials have been killed with these guns this year — though officers also have been killed with .357 magnum revolvers, .45-caliber pistols and AK-47- or M-16-style assault rifles. Still, due to the rising popularity of the 5.7 x 28 mm weapons among cartel gunmen, many of these somewhat esoteric (and excellently manufactured) weapons are acquired in the United States and end up south of the border. Any time one of these weapons is connected to a crime on either side of the border, a cartel link should be considered.

The gun problem in Mexico is similar to the drug problem in the United States in that it is extremely difficult to reduce the supply of the illicit items without first reducing the demand. Any small reduction in the supply leads to an increase in price, which further stimulates efforts to provide a supply. Therefore, as long as the demand for such weapons persists, people will continue to find creative ways to meet that demand and make a profit. With that demand being fed, at least in part, by drug cartels that are warring for control of drug trafficking routes into the United States, the two problems of drugs and guns will continue to be deeply intertwined.

[MT2008]

Here's one we put out much more recently (this is the one that I helped with):


Worrying Signs from Border Raids
November 12, 2008 | 1717 GMT

By Fred Burton and Scott Stewart


Last week, the Mexican government carried out a number of operations in Reynosa, Tamaulipas, aimed at Jaime “El Hummer” Gonzalez Duran, one of the original members of the brutal cartel group known as Los Zetas. According to Mexican government officials, Gonzalez Duran controlled the Zetas’ operations in nine Mexican states.

The Nov. 7 arrest of Gonzalez Duran was a major victory for the Mexican government and will undoubtedly be a major blow to the Zetas. Taking Gonzalez Duran off the streets, however, is not the only aspect of these operations with greater implications. The day before Gonzalez Duran’s arrest, Mexican officials searching for him raided a safe house, where they discovered an arms cache that would turn out to be the largest weapons seizure in Mexican history. This is no small feat, as there have been several large hauls of weapons seized from the Zetas and other Mexican cartel groups in recent years.

The weapons seized at the Gonzalez Duran safe house included more than 500 firearms, a half-million rounds of ammunition and 150 grenades. The cache also included a LAW rocket, two grenade launchers and a small amount of explosives. Along with the scores of assorted assault rifles, grenades and a handful of gaudy gold-plated pistols were some weapons that require a bit more examination: namely, the 14 Fabrique Nationale (FN) P90 personal defense weapons and the seven Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifles contained in the seizure.
Matapolicias

As previously noted, the FN Five-Seven pistol and FN P90 personal defense weapon are very popular with the various cartel enforcer groups operating in Mexico. The Five-Seven and the P90 shoot a 5.7 mm-by-28 mm round that has been shown to be effective in penetrating body armor as well as vehicle doors and windows. Because of this ability to punch through body armor, cartel enforcers call the weapons “matapolicias,” Spanish for “cop killers.” Of course, AK-47 and M-16-style assault rifles are also effective at penetrating body armor and vehicles, as are large-caliber hunting rifles such as the 30.06 and the .308. But the advantage of the Five-Seven and the P90 is that they provide this penetration capability in a much smaller — and thus far more concealable — package.

The P90 is a personal defense weapon designed to be carried by tank crew members or combat support personnel who require a compact weapon capable of penetrating body armor. It is considered impractical for such soldiers to be issued full-size infantry rifles or even assault rifles, so traditionally these troops were issued pistols and submachine guns. The proliferation of body armor on the modern battlefield, however, has rendered many pistols and submachine guns that fire pistol ammunition ineffective. Because of this, support troops needed a small weapon that could protect them from armored troops; the P90 fits this bill.

In fact, the P90 lends itself to anyone who needs powerful, concealable weapons. Protective security details, some police officers and some special operations forces operators thus have begun using the P90 and other personal defense weapons. The P90’s power and ability to be concealed also make it an ideal weapon for cartel enforcers intent on conducting assassinations in an urban environment — especially those stalking targets wearing body armor.

The Five-Seven, which is even smaller than the P90, fires the same fast, penetrating cartridge. Indeed, cartel hit men have killed several Mexican police officers with these weapons in recent months. However, guns that fire the 5.7 mm-by-28 mm cartridge are certainly not the only type of weapons used in attacks against police — Mexican cops have been killed by many other types of weapons.
Reach Out and Touch Someone

While the P90 and Five-Seven are small and light, and use a small, fast round to penetrate armor, the .50-caliber cartridge fired by a Barrett sniper rifle is the polar opposite: It fires a huge chunk of lead. By way of comparison, the 5.7 mm-by-28 mm cartridge is just a little more than 1.5 inches long and has a 32-grain bullet. The .50-caliber Browning Machine Gun (BMG) cartridge is actually 12.7 mm by 99 mm, measures nearly 5.5 inches long and fires a 661-grain bullet. The P90 has a maximum effective range of 150 meters (about 165 yards), whereas a Barrett’s listed maximum effective range is 1,850 meters (about 2,020 yards) — and there are reports of coalition forces snipers in Afghanistan scoring kills at more than 2,000 meters (about 2,190 yards).

The .50-BMG round not only will punch through body armor and normal passenger vehicles, it can defeat the steel plate armor and the laminated ballistic glass and polycarbonate windows used in lightly armored vehicles. This is yet another reminder that there is no such thing as a bulletproof car. The round is also capable of penetrating many brick and concrete block walls.

[MT2008]

We have heard reports for years of cartels seeking .50-caliber sniper rifles made by Barrett and other U.S. manufacturers. Additionally, we have noted many reports of seizures from arms smugglers in the United States of these weapons bound for Mexico, or of the weapons being found in Mexican cartel safe houses — such as the seven rifles seized in Reynosa. Unlike the P90s, however, we cannot recall even one instance of these powerful weapons being used in an attack against another cartel or against a Mexican government target. This is in marked contrast to Ireland, where the Irish Republican Army used .50-caliber Barrett rifles obtained from the United States in many sniper attacks against British troops and the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

That Mexican cartels have not used these devastating weapons is surprising. There are in fact very few weapons in the arsenals of cartel enforcers that we have not seen used, including hand grenades, 40 mm grenades, LAW rockets and rocket-propelled grenades. Even though most intercartel warfare has occurred inside densely populated Mexican cities such as Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez and Nuevo Laredo — places where it would be very difficult to find a place to take a shot longer than a few hundred meters, much less a couple thousand — the power of the Barrett could be very effective for taking out targets wearing body armor, riding in armored vehicles, located inside the safe house of a rival cartel or even inside a government building. Also, unlike improvised explosive devices, which the cartels have avoided using for the most part, the use of .50-caliber rifles would not involve a high probability of collateral damage.

This indicates that the reason the cartels have not used these weapons is to be found in the nature of snipers and sniping.
Snipers

Most military and police snipers are highly trained and very self-disciplined. Being a sniper requires an incredible amount of practice, patience and preparation. Aside from rigorous training in marksmanship, the sniper must also be trained in camouflage, concealment and movement. Snipers are often forced to lie immobile for hours on end. Additional training is required for snipers operating in urban environments, which offer their own set of challenges to the sniper; though historically, as seen in battles like Stalingrad, urban snipers can be incredibly effective.

Snipers commonly deploy as part of a team of two, comprising a shooter and a spotter. This means two very self-disciplined individuals must be located and trained. The team must practice together and learn how to accurately estimate distances, wind speed, terrain elevation and other variables that can affect a bullet’s trajectory. An incredible amount of attention to detail is required for a sniper team to get into position and for their shots to travel several hundred meters and accurately, consistently strike a small target.

In spite of media hype and popular fiction, criminals or terrorists commit very few true sniper attacks. For example, many of our sniper friends were very upset that the media chose to label the string of murders committed by John Mohammed and Lee Boyd Malvo as the “D.C. Sniper Case.” While Mohammed and Malvo did use concealment, they commonly shot at targets between 50 and 100 meters (about 55 yards to 110 yards) away. Therefore, calling Mohammed and Malvo snipers was a serious insult to the genuine article. The assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr., as well as the killing of Dr. Bernard Slepian, also have been dubbed sniper attacks, but they actually were all shootings committed at distances of less than 100 meters.

Of course, using a Barrett at short ranges (100 meters or less) is still incredibly effective and does not require a highly trained sniper — as a group of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives special agents found out in 1993 when they attempted to serve search and arrest warrants at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The agents were met with .50-caliber fire that ripped gaping holes through the Chevrolet Suburbans they sought cover behind. Many of the agents wounded in that incident were hit by the shrapnel created as the .50-caliber rounds punched through their vehicles.

While it is extremely powerful, the Barrett is however a long, heavy weapon. If the sniper lacks training in urban warfare, it might prove very difficult to move around with the gun and also to find a concealed place to employ it. This may partially explain why the Mexican cartels have not used the weapons more.

Moreover, while the Zetas originally comprised deserters from the Mexican military and over the years have shown an ability to conduct assaults and ambushes, we have not traditionally seen them deploy as snipers. Today, most of the original Zetas are now in upper management, and no longer serve as foot soldiers.

The newer men brought into the Zetas include some former military and police officers along with some young gangster types; most of them lack the level of training possessed by the original Zetas. While the Zetas have also brought on a number of former Kaibiles, Guatemalan special operations forces personnel, most of them appear to be assigned as bodyguards for senior Zetas. This may mean we are not seeing the cartels employ snipers because their rank-and-file enforcers do not possess the discipline or training to function as snipers.
Potential Problems

Of course, criminal syndicates in possession of these weapons still pose a large potential threat to U.S. law enforcement officers, especially when the weapons are in the hands of people like Gonzalez Duran and his henchmen. According to an FBI intelligence memo dated Oct. 17 and leaked to the media, Gonzalez Duran appeared to have gotten wind of the planned operation against him. He reportedly had authorized those under his command to defend their turf at any cost, to include engagements with U.S. law enforcement agents. It is important to remember that a chunk of that turf was adjacent to the U.S. border and American towns, and that Reynosa — where Gonzalez Duran was arrested and the weapons were seized — is just across the border from McAllen, Texas.

Armed with small, powerful weapons like the P90, cartel gunmen can pose a tremendous threat to any law enforcement officer who encounters them in a traffic stop or drug raid. Over the past several years, we have noted several instances of U.S. Border Patrol agents and other U.S. law enforcement officers being shot at from Mexico. The thought of being targeted by a weapon with the range and power of a .50-caliber sniper rifle would almost certainly send chills up the spine of any Border Patrol agent or sheriff’s deputy working along the border.

Armed with assault rifles, hand grenades and .50-caliber sniper rifles, cartel enforcers have the potential to wreak havoc and outgun U.S. law enforcement officers. The only saving grace for U.S. law enforcement is that many cartel enforcers are often impaired by drugs or alcohol and tend to be impetuous and reckless. While the cartel gunmen are better trained than most Mexican authorities, their training does not stack up to that of most U.S. law enforcement officers. This was illustrated by an incident on Nov. 6 in Austin, Texas, when a police officer used his service pistol to kill a cartel gunman who fired on the officer with an AK-47.

While the arrest of Gonzalez Duran and the seizure of the huge arms cache in Reynosa have taken some killers and weapons off the street, they are only one small drop in the bucket. There are many heavily armed cartel enforcers still at large in Mexico, and the violence is spreading over the border into the United States. Law enforcement officers in the United States therefore need to maintain a keen awareness of the threat.

[MT2008]

Fox News now has an interesting article:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

It's at least a good start to pro-gunners providing proof that's been hearsay up to this point.

[jdun]

When you got drug gangs using RPG, Grenades, Machineguns, Fully Automatic Weapons, etc,. You know off the bat it didn't came from the USA. They either produce it or imported it south of their boarder

[MT2008]

When you got drug gangs using RPG, Grenades, Machineguns, Fully Automatic Weapons, etc,. You know off the bat it didn't came from the USA. They either produce it or imported it south of their boarder

Well, as Fox News explains, it might have come from the USA if it's stuff that was either (A.) Supplied to the Mexican Army by the U.S. govt, or (B.) Stolen from the military (there are many Latino thugs in the U.S. who are enlisted in the Army and steal military hardware for the black market).

That being said, if I see PS90 carbines, Five-Seven pistols (which are popular weapons), or any gun which has features identifying it as a semi-auto civilian "assault weapon", then it's safe to assume it started out in the civilian market, at a licensed FFL.

[jdun]

You thinking too hard on the problem. There will always be a small number of arms that make it to Mexico from the USA. However, the vest majority of firearms are imported from Mexico or homemade by Mexican.

The Liberal News Media, Mexican Government and the ATF are dishonest. It simple as that.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/03/video-the-mexican-gun-canard/

[MT2008]

You thinking too hard on the problem. There will always be a small number of arms that make it to Mexico from the USA. However, the vest majority of firearms are imported from Mexico or homemade by Mexican.

The Liberal News Media, Mexican Government and the ATF are dishonest. It simple as that.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/03/video-the-mexican-gun-canard/

I still question the homemade assertions. There seems to be plenty of evidence that cartels purchase guns from both the intl. arms market and the U.S. civvie market, or steal them from govt. sources (exact percentages for each source are what's debatable). But homemade? Mexicans are not like Pashtun or Yemenis. There doesn't seem to be any empirical evidence that Mexicans build homemade guns.

Also, isn't "imported from Mexico" almost oxymoronic if they're in Mexico to begin with?

BTW, I was looking at a video on YouTube recently of UVF paramilitaries attending a gun lecture. The UVF used to make homemade copies of Sterling subguns, and they're really crude-looking. You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBQxKQo2cE

And this is in Northern Ireland, a place where (unlike Mexico) modern tooling would have been much more readily available. If Ulstermen and Irishmen build guns that look that crude, I can't imagine the Mexicans could make theirs a whole lot better (assuming they actually do make guns, which seems doubtful).

[Phoenixent]

I still question the homemade assertions. There seems to be plenty of evidence that cartels purchase guns from both the intl. arms market and the U.S. civvie market, or steal them from govt. sources (exact percentages for each source are what's debatable). But homemade? Mexicans are not like Pashtun or Yemenis. There doesn't seem to be any empirical evidence that Mexicans build homemade guns.

Also, isn't "imported from Mexico" almost oxymoronic if they're in Mexico to begin with?

BTW, I was looking at a video on YouTube recently of UVF paramilitaries attending a gun lecture. The UVF used to make homemade copies of Sterling subguns, and they're really crude-looking. You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBQxKQo2cE

And this is in Northern Ireland, a place where (unlike Mexico) modern tooling would have been much more readily available. If Ulstermen and Irishmen build guns that look that crude, I can't imagine the Mexicans could make theirs a whole lot better (assuming they actually do make guns, which seems doubtful).

The problem with these people making homemade weapons they are fighters not craftsmen so their products come out looking like crap and work the same. The weapons made in Pakistan on the border are amazing who the quality is for being homemade. They are craftsmen and have pride in their work when making a firearm right down to put in the inspection stamps. All they use is hand tools and forges no CNC machines. They just take pride in their work.

[MT2008]

The problem with these people making homemade weapons they are fighters not craftsmen so their products come out looking like crap and work the same. The weapons made in Pakistan on the border are amazing who the quality is for being homemade. They are craftsmen and have pride in their work when making a firearm right down to put in the inspection stamps. All they use is hand tools and forges no CNC machines. They just take pride in their work.

Yeah, I've read about / seen pictures of the Pashtun (Pakistani) gunsmiths in NWFP and FATA. Those guys are really talented. There's a good article about that here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/travel/2008/11/town-tribal-pakistan-law-gun

(and that's a really close replica of an Armsel Striker the guy in the picture is building)

Only point is, I'm not sure the Mexicans are like the Pakistanis. Pakistanis are known well for being extremely skilled craftsmen (i.e. look at those rugs they make in Karachi by hand), so I'm not surprised that they can build perfect copies of AKs and other such weapons. But Mexicans aren't really known for that kind of craftsmanship.